Often hear how the military is underpaid. Is this always true ? or is a little politics and squeaky-wheel effect creeping in ? For example …
A third year Honolulu cop makes about 30K or so, not much OT, and despite reports to the contrary, buys his own donuts, pays rent (not likely to get a mortgage here), shops at the Safeway or whatever…
Is this actually that much better than the equivalent E-4 MP, with base housing, commissary/PX, access to MAC flights, free/subsidized MWR facilities, price/tax supports on major purchases, etc ?
[I’m guessing the variance increases in favor of civilians proportionately with rank or time-in.]
Well, I don’t have the pay scale in front of me, but I want to address some of the things you brought up…
First…Base housing–
You’re kidding with this one right?..I mean, if you’re single, base housing means that you live in the barracks…as an e-4, you’re entiltled to one room that you typically share with someone else…and between you, you share a very small bathroom. With a shower stall, and a toilet.
I think on $30k a year, you’re average civillian can do a little better than that…True, you may be able to get the base to let you live outside of the barracks, but this is not always a certanty. I had a two Bedroom hovel that I shared with a roommate, and could barely afford the $225 a month that was my share. You don’t get a whole lot of extra money at that rank. If you happen to be married, you’ll recieve more money, and have the possibility of getting on-base housing…but there’s a waiting list to get those houses…usually 16 months or more…since (In the Navy at least) your typical tour of duty is only 24 months, that means you get about half a year in your rent-free place.
commissary/PX–
Ok, granted that both of these are usually lower in price than what you’ll find out in town, but the commissary is used by every military, dependant, retired veteran, and reservist in the area…you’ve never seen lines like you will the day before payday. I’d pay the extra $20-$30 just to not have to stand in a check-out line for an hour (No, I’m not exagerating) And the PX has some neat things, but it is only one store…and that’s the only place you can show…no looking around for comparison, or for the exact brand you want. Especially if you’re overseas…then unless you want to brave the local markets, you have to go with the selection they have.
MAC Flights–
I think that the recruters have pushed this more than anyone esle…while it’s true that you can fly on the Military Airlift Command flights anywhere in the world, getting put on those flights can be a chore. Anyone that is under orders to be on that flight takes precedence…and that’s usually the bulk of the flight. Emergency leave gets a higher priority…and then it’s usually done in order of rank/time of sign-up…I personally have shown up at 5am for 4 days in a row trying to get on one of these, and I had orders. So it’s no sure thing to use MAC at all.
MWR–
Ok, these usually are things like pools/gym/weight room…my appartment complex has a community pool, and a little weight room on site…it’s what I pay rent for…While the MWR also runs base clubs, you still have to pay for drinks…the only advantage is that they don’t charge as much…still not free.
Price/tax supports–
I’m not sure what you meant by this one…I don’t know of anything like this that I had.
When I got out after 6 years, I was an E-5…living overseas. In order to hold the same standard of living, I had to make about $30k a year…or what you’re 3 year cop makes…so I made the same amount in twice the time…and there’s no OT in the military…You can be called to duty at any time…and yes, I’ve had it done to me…
I hope that puts things into a litte perspective for you…let me know if I can help any more…
It’s an exaggeration. Anyone in the military that runs short of money doesn’t know how to manage money very well. Everything is free. You don’t even have to buy toilet paper if you don’t want to. Sure, the barracks may be low quality housing - but it beats living with mom (Your mom may vary). It’s about like a college dorm, only you don’t have to sneak the women in. The people that were always short of money were the alcoholics and the drug addicts. If you’re selling plasma for beer money, you have a problem.
The income may not be as high, but every penny you get is disposable. It just depends on how you dispose of it.
Either you’re speaking in very broad terms, or you couldn’t hit the ground with your hat.
You just can’t do a straight pay comparison; it’s apples and oranges. Your average civilian making $30,000 knows with some certainty that his weekends are his, as are his evenings. When you are military, the Government owns you, 24/7, in a very real sense; if you don’t believe me, try not reporting for work (failure to go) or taking an unanounced/unapproved vacation (AWOL), both of which can cause you take a trip to Club Fed. By law, they only have to give you one hour out of 24 to sleep, and you can be sent anywhere in the world at a moments notice for an indefinite period, and they don’t care that your sister’s getting married this weekend, or your wife is 8 months pregnant. If you factor in all the intangible ‘benefits’ vs the responsibilities and duties, we earn every penny, and more. BTW, as an active duty E-6, my net was closer to $22000.00 than 30; I lived on base, and my housing wasn’t free, although it was cheap, about commensurate with the quality of the quarters. In addition to which, for the privelege of that house, I put up with people telling me just how I could keep it up, what I could plant, how short I had to cut my lawn, etc. All this cost me the withholding of a housing allowance. I could go on and on, but the bottom line is, a ‘benefit’ won’t put beans on the table or buy diapers, and congress loves to whittle your benefits away, which is one reason retention is not what it used to be. By and large, when there’s a popular war on, the military can do no wrong, and when we’re at peace, the peepul, bless their black flabby little hearts can’t wait to be shut of us, and spend the money somewhere else. Freedom isn’t free, and is paid for not only with a portion of the tax dollars we all pay, but in the daily little sacrifices of life-style that no civilian would tolerate, and, finally, in the blood of my brothers and sisters in arms. Lastly, after seventeen years of service, my retirement pay covers my mortgage and utilities (all I ever expected it to do), and will stop when I die. Oh, and even though I’m required to pay Social Insecurity, I will never be eligible to collect it, so long as I receive a federal retirement.
Now, having said all that, let me say that I didn’t raise my right hand to get rich. I joined to serve my country, and support a constitution that I’ll love and defend to my dying breath. If you are serving or have served, you should know all this; if havn’t, then you have no right to speak on the subject.
Those of us who have only been reading for a year or two have a tough time licking our fingers and following along line by line unless, that’s right, you help out with lines between paragraphs…
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
Okay, I’ve recovered my breath and even my sense of reality. Please ask your typical E4 or below on sea duty what the size of his or her rent-free housing is. Wait, here’s the answer: 6 foot by 3 foot by 4 foot. It’s a freaking bunk on the ship!
That used to apply to the single E5 and single E6 also but the Navy leadership managed to get Congress to spring for off-base “allowances” for the E5 and E6 finally. Of course Congress didn’t want to do that and the Navy leadership has been pushing for off-base allowances for everyone.
Commissary/Exchange: depends on what you’re looking for and where you’re stationed. Some places, the cheaper items are on base; some places, the cheaper items are off base.
And let’s not forget the spectre of black marketing. If someone gets caught buying stuff at the base store (usually cigarettes and liquor because there’s no state taxes on them), the career is finished and there’s a possiblity of doing brig or stockade time.
Medical: (apologies in advance to Sue) this is really a non-starter these days depending on where stationed. Where I’m stationed, the closest military hospital is just outside of Sacramento. The clinic at the Presidio is only geared for active duty military and the families have to go through Tri-Care. This last can be quite the cluster, just like any other HMO.
In short, the much ballyhooed bennies are a thing of the past.
When my dad was in and I was a military dependent, from my perception, we had it pretty good. (He was an E5 when I was born in 1969, and retired as a CW3, on the list for CW4, in 1988.) We always had decent on-base housing except in Germany, and seemed to do pretty well.
That said, I’ve always thought the “you-don’t -have-the-right-to-say-X-unless-you’ve-served” line of thinking is a little dangerous. We are all equal citizens here.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
“It’s about like a college dorm, only you don’t have to sneak the women in.”
Oh yes, you do. Most single-sex billets/quarters/barracks/dorms are verboten to the opposite sex. Having a member of the opposite sex in any area other than the “common areas” like the foyer or waiting room is a punishable offense.
“That said, I’ve always thought the “you-don’t -have-the-right-to-say-X-unless-you’ve-served” line of thinking is a little dangerous. We are all equal citizens here.”
Equal under the law? Wanna bet? Ok, but that’s a whole 'nother thread! I’m speaking experientially.
It’s right up there with a guy shooting his mouth off about giving birth; you ain’t even got the T-shirt, much less been there, done that.
Vestal Blue, you’re about on track, lest this degenerate into a GD forum… And while I tend to agree w/you, that’s why I had selected the example of a cop (or paramedic, or similar) as they also have little personal freedom, from pee-tests (no big deal) to on-call status, fininancial restrictions, background checks, et al…
Does the civilian’s 30K actually leave the same discretionary income than the serviceman’s 22K, philosophical questions aside ?
I didn’t think a philosophical debate was that you wanted, but there you go.
I suspect, but do not know for certain, that a cop, fireman, etc. might have it better in some areas; the only reason I say this is that they are for the most part unionized, and as such have collective bargaining on their side, and are not subject to the vagaries of congress or the perception by the people of the state of national security at any given time.
Hopefully this is closer to the intent of your question.
Vestal Blue has my endorsement as well.
I was in seven years and my main problem with the pay scale was that I was making the same amount as an unskilled laborer, as long as we were the same rank. While a security guard may make the same amount in the military as out(if you consider him around E-5 pay scale), someone like me definitely would not. I make about 4 times what I made in the Army now that I am out. Perhaps if the military were hip to this, the attrition rate for people in my specific field would not be so high.
“Teaching without words and work without doing are understood by very few.”
-Tao Te Ching
AWB, Colonels.
As for army housing, Ive been in the Presidio of Monterey. They have guards 24 hours a day in the dorms & if you are a guy caught with a woman in your room at night, you can be sentenced to guard duty 24 hour shifts.
You have to leave your door OPEN all the time you have guests.
You also have to clean your bathroom everyday.
I also knew a woman there, her roommate was a woman, they would often sleep together but since they were the same sex [not lesbians] it was allowed.
Handy: even at the Presidio, visiting hours are in place for guests in rooms. What you’ve described happens, yet it’s still an offense which is punishable under the UCMJ.
