Payback for Kidnap and Torture is Beginning

Great Debates
1

“An Italian judge has ordered 26 US citizens - most of them CIA agents - to stand trial over the kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric in Milan in 2003.”

"Those indicted include the former station chief of CIA operations in Milan, Robert Seldon Lady, who says his opposition to the proposal to kidnap the Imam was over-ruled.

He is reported to have returned to the US, leaving behind a villa in Italy which he bought with his life savings."

No more European vacations, or transit through the EC for these people then.

I think this will be a growing trend after the recent European Parliament report:

*"The European Parliament’s approval of a report accusing EU states of turning a blind eye to CIA rendition flights is not the end of the story.

Although the parliament’s committee investigating the flights, and reports of secret CIA prisons, is now being wound up, other investigations are under way which will ensure the issue stays in the news."*

No CIA operative active in Europe after 9/11 will be safe.

Justice for some of the kidnappees and tortured, then , is a possibility, even if the justice is merely that the perpertrators lives will be screwed if they are interested in international travel.

2

It’s also mentioned in the article that Italians allegedly complicit in the kidnapping have been indicted, including the former military intelligence chief. There has, of course, been a change of government in Italy.

It will be interesting to see in cases such as this, what authorisation was given or seen to be given by the host nations and what legal status such authorisations will be found to have.

Of course, the political impetus for dealing with this sort of stuff depends to a fair extent on the practice being seen as part of a counterproductive suite of policies.

3

An interesting article which suggests that many of the indictees were NOT likely CIA agents, but rather Special Ops guys.

4

[QUOTE=Pjen]
He is reported to have returned to the US, leaving behind a villa in Italy which he bought with his life savings."

No more European vacations, or transit through the EC for these people then.
[/QUOTE]
Big deal. They’ll just switch to untouchable retirement spots, like the fabulous Hocking Hills.

We don’t got no steenking extradition treaties.

5

[QUOTE=Jackmannii]

We don’t got no steenking extradition treaties.
[/QUOTE]

I think that you will find that you do so.

Cite:

The entire EU seems to be covered.

6

So…you think this is a good thing I expect? You think that strained relations between Europe and the US will…what? Perhaps end with a total break between the US and Europe? Maybe Europe will formally declare war…I bet THAT would get your noodle all springy! :stuck_out_tongue:
Out of curiosity…why go after these people as individuals? I mean, were they supposedly acting on their own…or under US orders? If the latter…wouldn’t it make better sense to go after the US in some way? Sanctions? Boycotts? Diplomatic Protest? Break off diplomatic relations (or threaten too)? Threaten to withdraw from NATO? Something? This seems a round about way to do things…more like, I don’t know, an attempt to score cheap political points maybe? To make a lot of noise and cause a lot of smoke and outrage…but really have no perceptive effect (except on these individuals…as if they are the only agents we have or something) on the core issue?

It just seems so…well, petty. Sure, THESE agents have been properly spanked (no more Euro vacations! Oh the agony!)…but its done, afaict, absolutely zip to address the actual PROBLEM (if indeed it is a problem)…namely the US dicking around extra-legally in Europe apparently.

Or am I missing something?

-XT

7

[QUOTE=xtisme]
So…you think this is a good thing I expect? You think that strained relations between Europe and the US will…what? Perhaps end with a total break between the US and Europe? Maybe Europe will formally declare war…I bet THAT would get your noodle all springy! :stuck_out_tongue:
Out of curiosity…why go after these people as individuals? I mean, were they supposedly acting on their own…or under US orders? If the latter…wouldn’t it make better sense to go after the US in some way? Sanctions? Boycotts? Diplomatic Protest? Break off diplomatic relations (or threaten too)? Threaten to withdraw from NATO? Something? This seems a round about way to do things…more like, I don’t know, an attempt to score cheap political points maybe? To make a lot of noise and cause a lot of smoke and outrage…but really have no perceptive effect (except on these individuals…as if they are the only agents we have or something) on the core issue?

It just seems so…well, petty. Sure, THESE agents have been properly spanked (no more Euro vacations! Oh the agony!)…but its done, afaict, absolutely zip to address the actual PROBLEM (if indeed it is a problem)…namely the US dicking around extra-legally in Europe apparently.

Or am I missing something?

-XT
[/QUOTE]

If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.

Acts as a warning to future criminals that their actions are not without consequences.

8

[QUOTE=Pjen]
If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.
[/QUOTE]

Did I miss something? Are any of these folks doing time? I thought they basically got a slap on the wrist here.

[QUOTE=Pjen]
Acts as a warning to future criminals that their actions are not without consequences.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah…I’m sure they are shaking in their boots. :stuck_out_tongue: ‘You bad BAD guys! No more vacations for YOU! And don’t come back or we’ll…we’ll…we’ll…do something REALLY bad to you!’

-XT

9

[QUOTE=xtisme]
Did I miss something? Are any of these folks doing time? I thought they basically got a slap on the wrist here.

Yeah…I’m sure they are shaking in their boots. :stuck_out_tongue: ‘You bad BAD guys! No more vacations for YOU! And don’t come back or we’ll…we’ll…we’ll…do something REALLY bad to you!’

-XT
[/QUOTE]

I assume many of these people would want to go in for private protection work for the US Govt or other governments on their early retirement. If they can’t move through Europe, they’re buggered, or at least less attractive to people who might employ them.

At least for the person mentioned, it looks like his retirement plans have been disrupted.

10

[QUOTE=Pjen]
At least for the person mentioned, it looks like his retirement plans have been disrupted.
[/QUOTE]

I’m trying to see how this is relevant to the bigger picture. Even if we assume its true that this operative is screwed (leaving aside the fact that the US will probably compensate the man in some way or other for his loss…after all, he was, afaik, under orders to do just what he supposedly did), how does this deter the US from continueing to do what its been doing? I guess the equivelent would be (from your perspective anyway :stuck_out_tongue: ) putting out an arrest warrent for a german private (causing him to lose his cushy house in LA along with a nice car) while U-Boats continue to sink US shipping. While I’m sure the private may or may not be ‘screwed’ by the fact he loses his house in LA (or whatever), how is this anything but feel good politics geared toward propaganda? Hitler et al prolly doesn’t give a rats ass about said private…and is most likely laughing in his beer about such ‘strong’ measures. No?

How does this action address the supposed core issue of the US operating extra-legally in Europe? Ok, you spanked a group of worker bee’s…so what? If its REALLY a problem, shouldn’t/wouldn’t the European GOVERNMENTS (or the EU in concert) want to do something a bit more serious?

I’m really trying hard to understand how this is important and its obvious that I’m missing something here about your arguement Pjen…why do you see this as important (or debatable)?

-XT

11

[QUOTE=Pjen]
I think that you will find that you do so.
[/quote]
Hah, show me where the Hocking Hills have any extradition treaties.

There’s no government, flag or foreign embassies.

It’s like the legendary Hole-In-The-Wall, only in Ohio.

12

Besides, if you Euro-Brits start getting any fancy ideas about arresting American officials, we can retaliate by confiscating your Queen and the Duke of Earl.

13

[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
Besides, if you Euro-Brits start getting any fancy ideas about arresting American officials, we can retaliate by confiscating your Queen and the Duke of Earl.
[/QUOTE]

Who the hell is the Duke of Earl ?

14

[QUOTE=xtisme]
So…you think this is a good thing I expect? You think that strained relations between Europe and the US will…what? Perhaps end with a total break between the US and Europe? Maybe Europe will formally declare war…I bet THAT would get your noodle all springy! :stuck_out_tongue:
Out of curiosity…why go after these people as individuals? I mean, were they supposedly acting on their own…or under US orders? If the latter…wouldn’t it make better sense to go after the US in some way? Sanctions? Boycotts? Diplomatic Protest? Break off diplomatic relations (or threaten too)? Threaten to withdraw from NATO? Something? This seems a round about way to do things…more like, I don’t know, an attempt to score cheap political points maybe? To make a lot of noise and cause a lot of smoke and outrage…but really have no perceptive effect (except on these individuals…as if they are the only agents we have or something) on the core issue?

It just seems so…well, petty. Sure, THESE agents have been properly spanked (no more Euro vacations! Oh the agony!)…but its done, afaict, absolutely zip to address the actual PROBLEM (if indeed it is a problem)…namely the US dicking around extra-legally in Europe apparently.

Or am I missing something?

-XT
[/QUOTE]

…if you look at the whole issue as one of seperation of the state and the judiciary, the whole thing makes sense. An actual crime was committed: the alleged kidnapping of Osama Mustafa Hassan from the streets of Milan. From my reading of the story as it has been covered over the last few years, there is a good chance that possibly members of the Italian government were complicit in the crime. So who do the Police prosecute for the actual crime?

Obviously a Judge doesn’t have the power to enact sanctions against another government: **and if the Italian government offers gross indifference to a crime committed on its soil, **then the only option for the Judge in this case to take is to indict the people directly involved in the alleged kidnapping.

The next question you have to ask before a government starts sanctions, etc, is what proof do you actually have? I have citations in this thread I started nearly a year ago that show (well, used to show, one of the links is no longer active :frowning: ) how the CIA agents were tracked down by Italian agents by tracing GPS elements in the CIA agents cellphones. So the Italians have direct evidence against the agents involved, but no evidence against the US government or the CIA.

(The citations also show how the alleged kidnapping of the Hassan allegedly damaged an already active Italian investigation, and also how the US allegedly lied to Italian authorities, telling them that Hassan had fled to the Balkans, when he actually was in US custody.)

So how do you prove US involvement when the United States denies involvement in the kidnapping? You go after the little guy. To be blunt, there is no other way to prove US involvement without getting one of these agents up on the stand and getting him to admit it: which is the process the Italian Judiciary are undertaking at the moment.

15

No holidays in Europe ?

  • heck I recently had lunch with a guy with six passports (different nationalities), and yes, a long time ago he worked for the US Mil Intel - but was sure as heck not a USA born citizen.

It is window dressing, but quite sensible on the part of the Italians.

16

[QUOTE=Banquet Bear]
…if you look at the whole issue as one of seperation of the state and the judiciary, the whole thing makes sense. An actual crime was committed: the alleged kidnapping of Osama Mustafa Hassan from the streets of Milan.
[/QUOTE]
I agree, that’s what is overlooked so often in this case or the one in Germany. Sure, it looks as if someone was trying to make a point and certainly the investigations are exploited politically after the fact. However at the most basic level it is just a regular criminal investigation. What else are they supposed to do? What should they tell the victim, perhaps “Sure, you seem to have been kidnapped but we have reason to assume that the perpetrators were valiant defenders of the American way of life and this whole affair will cause more trouble than it’s worth. Get over it.”?

17

In a completely different case, an Italian judge has ordered a U.S. soldier to stand trial for shooting Italian intelligence agent Nicola Calipari, in Iraq, just as Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was being released after a month as a hostage. Story here. Sgrena has written a book about the incident. (At the time of the shooting, there was a conspiracy theory floating around that it was actually an attempt by the U.S. military to assassinate Sgrena.)

18

[QUOTE=Rayne Man]
Who the hell is the Duke of Earl ?
[/QUOTE]

Pop Rock and Roll Song.

“Duke, duke, duke, duke of earl…”

19

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
In a completely different case, an Italian judge has ordered a U.S. soldier to stand trial for shooting Italian intelligence agent Nicola Calipari, in Iraq, just as Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was being released after a month as a hostage. Story here. Sgrena has written a book about the incident. (At the time of the shooting, there was a conspiracy theory floating around that it was actually an attempt by the U.S. military to assassinate Sgrena.)
[/QUOTE]

Also the Spanish prosecuter who tried to get Pinochet extradited from London for alleged crimes committed in Chile.

It is just grandstanding - although the USA recently got lucky with some UK businessmen who may or may not have perpetrated a scam on a UK company in the UK.

20

[QUOTE=FRDE]
Also the Spanish prosecuter who tried to get Pinochet extradited from London for alleged crimes committed in Chile.

It is just grandstanding - although the USA recently got lucky with some UK businessmen who may or may not have perpetrated a scam on a UK company in the UK.
[/QUOTE]

This case is fundamentally unlike those war crimes prosecutions, where the jurisdiction of the various European courts is highly questionable. In this case the CIA operatives have been indicted in Italian courts for alleged crimes committed on Italian soil. This isn’t grandstanding at all, merely prosecuting a criminal act.