…Michael Vick. WTF? In what fucking universe is Vick worth an MVP vote this year?Clearly Manning deserved the MVP, but if anyone deserved to take a vote away (which they did not) it was Daunte Culpepper. Vick’s numbers are not any place near MVP level. Why would anybody pick Vick? Does his mom get a vote?
I think an argument can easily be made for Vick over Culpepper, as well as a lost-cause vote over Manning. Without Vick, the Atlanta Falcons not only don’t have a bye week in the playoffs, they sit at home and watch all of them on TV. Without Culpepper, you still have Moss who can catch anything thrown near him and a huge ground force. Without Manning, you still have two #1 receivers (Harrison and Wayne) and Edgerrin James. Of Vick, Manning and Culpepper, Vick provided more for his team - he made the biggest impact for his team, and thus, was the most valuable player for his team.
That’s how the argument usually pans out for the MVP in baseball, which I think is bogus. It’s the LEAGUE MVP, not the “Respective Team MVP” award thing.
Why should anyone care if Peyton Manning had the award by unanimous vote? He got the award, no?
We had a thread last year or the year before in which someone seriously suggested that Michael Vick was the greatest athlete who had ever lived. We are talking about a guy who isn’t even the best in his particular sport at the position he plays right now.
There’s this aura of mystique that surrounds him.
Check how his team performed with vs. without him. Then check how the Colts did with Peyton Manning playing. Jim Sorgi did just fine with the first string (substituting himself for Manning, of course) in against Denver. The Falcons were absolute crap without Vick.
Granted, I think Peyton deserved the award, but I’m not going to get batshit crazy arguing that nobody should even have had the balls to vote for anyone else. More, I doubt Peyton gives two ripe shits if someone else voted for Vick or James or Culpepper or their aunt Edna. He’s kinda busy with other shit right now.
I don’t think it can from any point of view.
Vick ran for 3 TDs this year. Culpepper, 2.
Vick threw 14 TDs, 12 INTs. Culpepper, 39/11.
Culpepper probably just had one of the top 5 season EVER for a quarterback.
Even in terms of “valuable to own team” I don’t think you can make a case for Vick over Manning or Culpepper. The Falcons had a much better defense than either of those teams. Manning and Culpepper ARE the Colts and Vikes.
All right, Vick had 902 rushing yards this year. That’s excellent. Still, Culpepper had over 400, and was a way better passer.
So, this vote for Vick. . .
Some “hometeamer” from Atlanta?.
Some guy who stubbornly hardened his heart against Manning. . .came up with some bullshit reason why it shouldn’t be him, and stuck to his guns, dammit!
Didn’t want to see it be unanimous. Who knows?
Anyway you slice it, he’s wrong.
Payton Manning has a foot fetish. Fuckin’ perv. :mad:
And just WHAT is wrong with foot fetishes?
[sub]How in the hell did you know he had one? That secret was better-kept than Rock Hudson…[/sub]
If it was good enough for Pushkin, it’s good enough for Peyton.
That’s all great. But every defensive coordinator is given more fits the night before playing Atlanta than they do before playing Indy/Minny. Why? Because Vick does unexpected things. That’s neither good nor bad, but you cannot prepare for it. As such, the entire offense is reliant upon those “unexpected things” to be good things. Vick is a complete wild card, and has more control over his team winning then Culpepper did. If Culpepper was such an MVP, Minnesota wouldn’t have gone into the usual end-of-season tailspin.
Again, no. On offense, Vick has few supporting cast members who stand out. Culpepper and Manning are surrounded by them. And those cast members aren’t good just because Dante and Peyton are throwing to them, as Jim Sorgi did a more than adequate job on little notice, and Gus Frerotte put up big numbers last year when Culpepper was out.
However, that’s just a devil’s advocate argument. My vote still goes to Manning.
Nope, some sports writer that works for Fox. They showed him on post-game Sunday.
Nope. Take Manning out of the Colts, I think they still make the playoffs. Take Vick out of the Falcons, they don’t.
There isn’t a guy in the league that would rather play against Atlanta’s offense than Minny’s or Indy’s. It’s not like Vick is the first guy they’ve ever seen scramble. They know he’s going to do something magical from time to time, but keeping in mind the mediocre running game of the Falcons (well, a top running game, but I’m talking about with Vick out of that equation) and no passing game, they have ways to deal with it. They spy a safety or LB on him.
Atlanta was bottom half in scoring this year. We’re talking about complete offensive package here, and Atlanta’s is not a system that give coordinators fits.
What, you gonna put him in at linebacker? Down the stetch Minny gave up 24, 27, 27, 34 and 21.
Moss didn’t even play 3 games this year, and was injured for about 3 more and Culpepper still got the job done.
Sorgi played about 1.5 games worth of football spread over 4 meaningless games. You have no idea how Indy would function without Manning.
Regardless, even if you are right, I think the award does, and SHOULD, go to Most Outstanding Offensive player, and have a similar one for defense.
In baseball, I think the same thing. Have a pitching award, and a hitting award. Do away with MVP altogether so we can avoid the same argument about whether a pitcher should get it, or a if a guy on a bad team should get it.
The problem with the football MVP is everyone is so team-dependent, much more so than in baseball. In baseball, if you hit .350/.450/.550, that’s not dependent on your teammates too much. That’s your achievement. In football, how much is the QB’s rating dependent on having quality receivers to throw to? I mean, the classic case this season is McNabb with TO vs. McNabb without TO.
Even with Culpepper there’s a difference between having Moss in the lineup and without. With Moss, he threw 30 TDs and 8 picks, without Moss he threw 9 TDs and 3 picks. The difference is even more glaring when you look at with a healthy Moss vs. a relatively gimpy Moss. With Moss healthy, Culpepper threw 18 TDs and only 3 picks. When Moss wasn’t 100% at the end of the season, he threw 12 TDs and 5 picks.
How good would Vick be if he got to throw to Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison all game, with James providing more pop in the backfield? Would he be a better pure passer than Manning? Nope. Would he be a better all around QB? Maybe.
Individual awards just don’t make any sense in football. It’s too team dependent.
I don’t doubt that. But I’d wager that it’s a lot easier to predict what Indy and Minny are going to do, thus making a coordinator’s job that much easier.
No we’re not - we’re talking about winning games. Atlanta won more of them.
What are you talking about? Moss managed to score 13 touchdowns in 3 games!? We should be arguing that HE should have gotten the MVP. Again, I’m not saying that Culpepper didn’t put up a fantastic season. I’m saying that under the pretense that you give the MVP to the person that is singularly the most important aspect of his team (which, again, I don’t agree with), an argument can be made to give Vick a sympathy vote.
Yet we have an idea of how Atlanta would function without Vick - it’s called the 2003 season. It’s night and day different than the 2004 season - thus the singular MVP vote.
How so? Last year without Vick, Altanta went 5-11 to finish last in their division. This year they went 11-5 to capture the #2 playoff seed and a bye week. (And for the record, their defense actually allowed more points this year than last.)
And oddly enough, it did! And I agree with it!
Culpepper also broke an NFL record for combined passing and rushing yards this years (5,123 yards, breaking Dan Marino’s previous mark of 5,077). Daunte’s 4,717 passing yards led the NFL this year.
Culpepper broke 25 different team or league records this year. He played three games without Moss and several with (including the playoff game against GB) with a gimpy Moss.
In almost any other year, Culpepper would be a clear MVP candidate. I think he was hurt this year not only by Peyton’s touchdown record but by the Vikings’ 8-8 record (due largely to defensive problems and injuries to key players).
Having said all that, I love watching Michael Vick play. He provides the same kind of exhileration that Barry Sanders used to provide. It’s worth watching Vick just to see such breathtaking athleticism. I think he also has charisma, leadership and a fantastic arm if he can just get some receivers and some pass protection. I do think that Vic elevates his team like no other QB in the NFL right now. Without Vick, the Falcons are the 49ers. With him they have a chance against anyone and I think his teammates really take a lot of inspiration from him. Imagine if Vick had a randy Moss or a Terrell owens to throw to. Imagine if he had an elite running back (like Edgerrin James) to take some pressure off. I think his numbers would be off the charts.
I like Nate Burlson better than Moss. He is a more complete receiver, and he’s tough. I wouldn’t want to be on the wrong end of the stiff arm.
Agreed about the overrating and aura of mistique. But part of the mystique that surrounds him is that he is a “winner.”
Last year, without Vick, their record was 5-11. This year, with Vick, they were 11-5. And he didn’t play in one of the losses this year.
I know, it’s a team sport.
Let’s see how well he and his team does this weekend.
Exactly correct. Manning gets 100% of the MVP award and all that goes with it (ie trophy, bonus, car, 72 virgins, etc.) , even if he didn’t get 100% of the vote. The idea that someone can be harmed or insulted by not winning an award unanimously is just silly.
But that was last year. Using that logic, why not give it to Marc Bulger? He had a great season and we got to see exactly how potent that offense is without him.
If I’d been wanting to make a token vote against Manning, I would have voted for Charles Woodson. Would’ve been funnier that way.
If Marc Bulger had received an MVP vote, I’d be making the same argument. But he didn’t, so I’m not.