PC’s have one distinct advantage: software availability. This advantage is so overwhelming that it more than overcomes any disadvantages (and there are many) inherent in a Wintel-based PC. If there is no other advantage, this would be enough. Another thing also mentioned is ability to use the latest storage devices such as DVD-Ram and 30GB tapes. Again the vast majority are made for PCs. People will go to the one who has the most.
Macs are better for graphic artists and desktop publishers. Macs currently can process graphics better than PCs. But for those like me who use it for serious multi-tasking, such watching The Powerpuff Girls on DVD while surfing for a music download from Napster, calculating next months budget on a spreadsheet and listening to a different song from Winamp, all at the same time, PC’s are the answer.
I’d like to quote my last post here, because I think this is a really important part of my stance on this:
I keep on coming back to this. Just being able to WORK the damned thing with comfort and ease is very important. I felt this keenly when I was choosing which one of my computers to install that digital camera on. I feel this keenly a lot at times. This is why I use my PC somewhat less than my Mac these days. Not because I hate my PC, or because it’s sooooo terrible. It’s because I have been able to compare how things work on both systems, I know both Operating Systems, and the Mac is just nicer to work with, to me.
To extend the damnable car analogy - a PC is like a very functional, utilitarian car that everyone seems to have, but to me, the controls are a little off-kilter (but still usable) and the seats are not very comfy. It doesn’t mean that the PC-car isn’t a good car, but that extra ease-of-use and comfiness makes the little more expensive Mac-car so totally worth it to me, and a lot of other Mac people.
So many new computer users being swept away by the PC popularity - they go with the flow and get a PC. And all the information they get from other PC users is that Macs aren’t “worth it”. Well, I was told (in essence) that Macs weren’t “worth it” when I was thinking about getting a computer, but I was told WRONG. It turns out that they are worth it, to me, and I daresay they’d be “worth it” to a lot of other people, if they actually got some balanced, unbiased information about them!
In other words, a Mac is a fancy-shmancy luxury vehicle with leather seats and translucent siding (:D), while a PC is like a big, clunky van that you can fiddle around with and get all dirty and smelly.
I like my van. I threw a small couch in the back, added some shag carpet, a disco ball, a refrigerator…
Are you kiddin? I’m the multi-taskin’ queen. At any given moment I’ve got a dozen apps running, 3 or 4 actually doing something, at least. No prob.
And I have more software to do more things that I will surely ever need in this lifetime. Literally. It’s kind of a sickness with me. I once tried to calculate how long I would need to really learn to use everything I have fluently. I concluded that if I never did anything else, and I studiously applied myself for 12 hours a day, 50 weeks a year, I could master them all by the time I’m a hundred or so. ok, 75. But still…
Currently running Photoshop while listening to MP3s with SoundJam in the background. And Netscape, and Outlook Express… I just need more RAM…(160 megs doesn’t cut it when you have memory hogs like Photoshop and Dreamweaver…)
Got lots of software. I am earnestly trying to enhance my Photoshop skills, so that’s what I’m spending most of my time with these days. Which leaves Illustrator, LiveMotion, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Flash, ImageReady, BBEdit, Painter, and quite a few other applications neglected. I am stressing out because I invested in all this software, but fear I don’t have enough time to learn it! And then there’s all the shareware, like a great ftp program that I like just as much (if not more) than CuteFTP, lots of web authoring, sound, graphics, email programs and on and on. A Mac-only browser called iCab, which is very nice. I get these great Mac magazines that include CDs full of software. I feel like I have enough software options. No complaints here!
Numerous Graphical Applications + Powerful CPU = Awesome Graphics machine
Well, great. No one’s disputing that. It only makes sense that companies will release many graphical apps for computers known for running graphical apps well.
However, are you trying to dispute the fact that more software is available for PC? For every one program that is available on Mac and PC, there are another 9 alternatives for PC (Disclaimer: these are not actual numbers, just using it as an example).
How many C/C++ apps are there? How about Basic, or Java, or any dozens of other programming apps? How many powerful alternatives to Photoshop are there? What options do you have if you want something that works, but isn’t as complicated as Photoshop? I can go to any computer store and find at least 5 alternate graphical apps for my PC. I personally have Paint Shop Pro 7, because I needed something that is powerful, but not as powerful as Photoshop, something that was cheap, and something that was easy to use. PSP 7 is all of that.
So, yeah, Macs are great for people who specialize in graphics, movies, 3D animations, what have you. However, for people who need a little of everything, with decent prices and good functionality, I would deem a PC better. Considering that the majority of the population does not need powerful graphics processing capabilities, why would they shell out the cash to get a good Mac? (Don’t get me started on iMacs!)
BTW, in the case of iMovie, of course PC’s cannot run it. Why would they? It’s designed to run on MACs. However, I could go to the store and get 5 equivilent PC alternatives to iMovie, none of which run on Mac. So, nya!
Ya know, I’ve always just accepted the line about software availability, but I’m really starting to get tired of it. Let’'s take a closer look.
I concede that there are many more titles over all. I concede that there are many more games. And I concede that if you have very specialized business needs, you’ll find what you need on the PC quicker than the mac.
But how does that really play out in most people’s lives? What is all this amazing amount of software? What does it do? Who is using it? My partner and I run a very profitable web business out of our home, using Macs and PC’s, and the only thing he appears to have that I don’t is an endless supply of games, (which, by the way, is not necessarily a good thing). Interestingly, out of all his games, there have only been three that ever interested me at all, and two are also available for the Mac. in fact, even though he is the webmaster, he doesn’t seem to have software that is half as good as what I have for doing some basic sanity-saving tasks. (BBedit, the best text editor around.)
So other than games, or software designed for metallurgists, pretty much anything you can do I can do better. Or at least as well. So why should I care that you have 14 choices to my 3?
Frankly, with all due respect, i think this “more software!” thing really is boys and their toys… just admit you mean more games and I won’t argue!
I don’t know, and neither does Gramma, or that AOL web surfer. It may be true that a die-hard C++ geek may need a PC. I don’t know. Maybe there are enough C++ programs out there for Macs, maybe not. (If not, I’d hazard a guess that the PC version would run on Virtual PC, though… )
I don’t know first-hand, since I have stuck with Photoshop. There is a very nice shareware program that is on my “Mac Bible” CD. I can’t remember its name, but “they” say it is an excellent, powerful alternative to Photoshop, for the budgetly-impaired. And then there’s the wonderful Graphic Converter, which opens EVERY graphic file known to Man. There’s probably more, I never looked.
I have tried some of them for my PC. A lot of them are redundant, or just not worth the money. And I love trying out new graphics programs! But more isn’t always better, and I have been disappointed by these “alternative” graphics apps. The “cream of the crop” of graphics applications are almost always available for Macs, I’ve found.
As of now, there’s the affordable up-and-coming “Photoshop Elements” for Mac and PC, Graphic Converter, and this I-Can’t-Remember-Its-Name Graphics program, and probably a few others I don’t know about. This should be sufficient to fill that need for inexpensive graphics programs. The Mac side is doing just fine, thankyouverymuch.
I have PSP 6. It’s nice, but irritating. I don’t like the interface near as much as Photoshop. I had a chance to get PSP 7, but didn’t bother. Eh. As I mentioned above, the Mac community is doing fine for inexpensive software. I don’t think they miss the likes of Paint Shop Pro.
See above. Affordable graphics programs, there are quite a few fun and affordable web authoring programs, other fun affordable programs, all available for Mac. The free Nisus Writer Word Processing program (which I use) is a Mac-only application. The nice little iCab browser. I have more software than I can use! And cheap software. That works. (This is not always the case with Windows software - I have had to remove some programs because they WOULD NOT WORK, or conflicted with other software. What a pain.)
tap tap tapHello! Is this thing on?!?! Have you not been reading my posts (and other Mac users’ posts) for these last 4 pages?!?! There are MANY REASONS. Ease-of-use, friendly OS, friendly Mac community, Cool iMac colors - MANY reasons. And I’ll repeat it again: EASE OF USE.
Monster, you seem like a very sweet guy, but I don’t think this is “computing” with you. You strike me as a very bright, talented computer guy. My guess is that it is beyond your comprehension that some people don’t want to mess with Windows. They find it a pain, they don’t enjoy it, it doesn’t “fit” their sensibilities, the Windows annoyances are something they are fed up with, whatever. And so they choose Macs instead. They prefer them. The Mac is worth it to them. Kapeesh? There’s more to it than money, or power, or speed. (Yikes, that sounds like a bad movie title!) Some people just like the Mac interface, and feel like it’s a comfy car, with the controls where they want the controls, and with a nice comfy seat. They feel like they get more done with less stress on a Mac. Or many other reasons. Just because this does not “compute” for you (obviously, since you never seem to acknowledge it) doesn’t mean it’s not so.They prefer Macs, my dear. You don’t have to. I’m not asking you to. I’d just like you to comprehend that to some people, the extra cost is WORTH IT. And that these people’s reasons for finding the cost worth it are valid reasons.
It’s not, if that is your priority. It’s not mine, and it’s not the priority of anyone I know except my fiance and my best friend’s 9 year old son (which is telling, unfortunately.) But more games isn’t the same as more/better software. Yes more, not better. We have plenty.
As for a C++ programming package, haven’t a clue, can’t comment. But most people aren’t programmers, which would be my point. Most people don’t have games as their’ #1 or even #2 priority, and most people don’t program. So those are weak arguments for the average person against buying a mac. Extrapolating those arguments into :" There’s no decent software for the mac." is a gross misrepresentation of the facts which might and certainly does mislead average people like yosemitebabe into buying what is really the less useful computer for their needs. I think Ybabe is the best possible argument for laying off arguing people out of buying Macs.
In fact, I would say this: if someone does not know enough about computers already to know one way or another whether they are better suited to Wintel or Macs… it’s a near certainty that they will be happier with a Mac.
and let’s not forget that nearly any Windows program will run on a Mac with Virtual PC, as Ybabe brings up, not to meniton the fact that because we are the miniority, we can open almost any document around.
As for the cheap graphics programs… plenty. But hell,l I got Pshop LE free with my scanner! Not to mention a ton of other graphics programs with my digital camera. Graphics and DTP is NOT the place you want to try and expose Mac weaknesses…it doesn’t have any.
Like I said, highly specialized business, and games. Beyond that, it’s a pretty level playing field.
To Monster104:
Just how many word processors (or spreadsheets, or video editing programs, or sound editors, or whatever else) does a person need, anyway?
To SPOOFE:
Yeah, my Mac’s a reliable luxury vehicle. Considering how much time I spend using it, it had damn better be!
(Disclaimer: None of what I say should be taken offensively. It is opinion based on facts available, not a representation of how things must be. And sorry about the length.)
To 'Babe:
**
I don’t know how many programming apps are available on Mac either. Everyone I know who programs a lot prefers PC’s because of the wide variety. I guess it would be safe to assume that a C++ program would run through Virtual PC, but I wouldn’t try compiling a large program through it.
I had PSP 5, and my friend had 6. 7 fixes a lot of interface problems in the previous versions. I like the interface, and found it a lot easier to harness than Photoshop (maybe there’s some genetic difference between us? ;)), and didn’t have to spend a lot of time learning a lot about it to be able to do some nifty stuff. If you already know Photoshop, I wouldn’t recommend gettin PSP. It would just be another app to get (And it sounds like you have enough as it is ;))
I’m not saying your preference is wrong, and I’m sorry if it sounded like I’m implying that. The only argument for getting a Mac which I deem invalid are the “cool” iMac colors. I’m just about fed up with Win98 myself. If it wasn’t for my games (And my brother’s games), my lack of money, and the fact that Windows XP is coming out soon, I would probably have gotten Win2k, which eliminates a lot of the stability issues and problems with Win98. Win98 is a bastardized hybrid OS, which is the core reason why it is so unstable.
I comprehend quite well why someone like good ol’ Granny would want to just get a computer she doesn’t have to fiddle with. It IS a pain when a device driver can’t be found, it IS annoying when an app will suddenly die because Windows decided to be evil. I’m not defending Microsoft. I’m going to ditch 98 as soon as I get something better for my PC (I’ve been learning Linux the past few weeks…difficult, but very stable!).
It’s computed, I comprehend it. It’s been computed since the last thread, and the thread before. If I completely disagreed, I would say so.
From my viewpoint, and that of many other people learning about computers, and even many thousands of other people who just want something to type on and to surf the web with, it’s not worth it. I’m not telling you it isn’t worth it. It’s a matter of opinion. I’m telling you my opinion. You’re telling me yours. Neither side is right or wrong, which is why this debate exists. So, while your reasons are a Mac’s power, ease of use, friendly OS, etc., my reasons are the PC’s customizability, software selectability, cheaper prices, and games.
Now, Stoid:
I would say this is wrong. The majority of PC users do have games as their #1 or #2 priority (However, like I’ve said before, many people with gaming as their priority get game consoles, but they often get PC’s as well). Also, most computer users don’t have heavy duty graphics, 3D animations, or movie-making as their #1 or #2 priority. I know very few people who are into any of these. However, you are pretty much right about the programming, and I would say there are proportional amounts of programmers for either side.
I have never once said there’s no decent software. I’ve just said there is more for the PC (granted, a lot of it might suck or might not suit your needs, but that’s the whole purpose of shopping wisely).
Now, tell me…what do you think is the average persons’ computing needs, and why would the PC be less useful for those needs?
My die-hard Mac friend doesn’t like Virtual PC. He claims every app he’s run through it is like running it on an old Pentium chip. He says every program he’s run ran smoother on his PII-266 (His iMac is a G3-300, I think). Then again, maybe it’s because his Mac is one of the crappy iMacs that I hate…
I know it doesn’t have any, which is why I wasn’t trying to conjure up any faults. I was pointing out that there are more alternative forms of any software on PC, whether the software in question is graphics, programming, whatever.
To rjung:
They should only have one. It’s not a matter of how many different types you have, it’s a matter of how many options you have to choose from. With a PC, you have many more options to choose from, whether it is hardware or software.
So, in theory, More products = More competition = Lower prices + Higher quality (Which isn’t true in most real-world situations, but on occasion you find it).
**
So, you like your stock luxury vehicle, eh? Well, I like my custom-built hot rod, and while it has engine problems occasionally, they’re problems I like tinkering to fix… (Speaking of which…now I want to upgrade my processor…and maybe get some more RAM…and another HDD…damn you for making me want to soup it up! :))
Well, I look forward to meeting you at a red light someday…maybe we could have a street-race!
So, we agree - you speak for yourself, and I speak for myself. I’m not expecting you to concede that Macs are “worth it”, because clearly, for you, they’re not.
So we’ve just been explaining to each other that for us, and us alone, our reasons are our reasons - right? Fine! Glad we got that settled.
I do claim, based on my experiences with PCs and Macs, that if more people starting out on computers knew the ease of use with Macs, they might go with them instead of PCs. But people don’t know. I had a brief conversation with a co-worker today, who was admiring my little Pentium laptop. She asked me a bit about computers, and then told me her Windows Internet woes, and printer problems. She said she was thinking of inviting some computer geek friends to her house to help her out, the problems were bothering her that much. I sympathised. Partly because of this thread, I mentioned to her that I also had a Mac at home, and it gave me so much less trouble. She had no idea that this was the case with Macs. I told her how it was easier to install hardware. She had no idea. She seemed impressed, and thoughtful about what I’d told her.
I don’t know how much of a budget this woman has, but I know she makes approx. as much as I do. If I could afford a Mac, she probably could too, if she was so inclined. She might even find the ease of a Mac use WORTH IT, just like I have. I’m not saying it’ll ever happen for her. Maybe she is too attached to too many Windows apps. Maybe she loves games. But most likely, all the PC Weenies around her would absolutely become hysterical if she were ever to mention a Mac. And so it goes.
You say that Macs are not worth it to you and many others, and you are right, of course. But I just want to add that if more people had experienced what I’ve experienced, I suspect more would opt for Mac. But they don’t know, just like my co-worker didn’t know. Who will tell them? For every one of me, there’s oodles of hysterical PC weenies waiting to freak out at the mention of Macs!
I do agree that it is unfair of someone to tell people how godly a PC is compared to a Mac. I know many people who don’t know much, and who aren’t inclined to find out. I know people who don’t know much, and ask me about it. I tell them. I don’t rant and rave about how Apple is evil, I don’t tell them Macs sucks. I tell them the good and the bad in my opinion. I inform them about the costs and benefits of both systems.
So far, 3 people have bought Macs. They’ve also thanked me for telling them about both systems, instead of one or the other (Mac people they’ve asked just ranted about how Microsoft is evil).
Well, this argument has deteriorated once again into folks really going nuts with the standard practice of randomly dismissing a valid argument and jumping to a completely different subject (“what? there’s more software for PC’s? well who needs more software anyway!? And besides, I’ve got so much software I can’t learn it all!”).
I’m truly sick of seeing this assumption:
Take it from someone who used to be a programmer on Adobe Illustrator: this is simply not true. The reason the Mac got firmly entrenched in the Desktop Publishing world first? Printing. In order to print in Postscript in the early days, you had to have a Mac. All that stuff on the screen? No difference. It’s all written in highly portable code that runs on either platform (and, in fact, last time I worked on it, ran much better on Windows).
Macs are better for some people, like my Grandma. Windows machines are better for other people (like my other Grandma, who does fine with Win98).
Ease-of-use is the only objective point on which you can honestly argue the superiority of a Mac, and even that is only true for the users who won’t be annoyed by the UI getting in their way once they know how things work. The rest is simply personal preference. So get over it.
Ease of use also depends heavily on the current state of the OS. I suspect Windows will become more user-friendly a lot sooner than Macs will become cheaper, less proprietary, and gain a wider selection of software.
Of course, I don’t really buy into ease of use comparisons. No one I personally know has more or less trouble with Windows than with MacOS; one isn’t easier than the other, they’re just different.
To further abuse the car example: MacOS has the steering wheel on the left, Windows has it on the right. MacOS has a pull’n’toggle switch for the high beams, Windows has a push’n’stay switch. Either one is only more difficult if you already have an opinion about which is the “right” way to do something.
As I said in my first (well, second really) post back when this was in GQ, from as neutral a position as I can take, the architecture and OS capabilities of the two machines are extremely similar, similar enough to say the advantages and disadvantages of one OS over the other are minimal. It’s all in the applications.
Back to GD, the PC has (obviously) many many more apps available. The argument “who needs so many apps anyway?” sounds like something from mother Russia, “why do you need more than one style of shoes?”. Why? Because I want software vendors to compete for my business. Competition causes higher quality and more choices. Are you saying that given a choice between fewer apps and more apps, you’d actually prefer fewer?
And as to all those apps being games, personally I don’t play computer games. I don’t own even one game. It’s just not my thing in life. Maybe there are more games on the PC, I don’t know; it’s not my thing. But for non-games, my personal experience is that there are far more choices on the PC.
One more thing: someone mentioned above that iMovie couldn’t play on the PC. Hmmmm. Doesn’t seem fair to complain on the one hand that MS creates proprietary advantages, and on the other hand brag that Apple’s proprietary formats can’t run elsewhere.
It’s equally unreasonable to say “I can run PC software on my Mac” and then claim iMovie as a Mac-specific advantage. A Mac can be emulated just as easily as a PC - perhaps even more easily, since there’s a single hardware platform.
)
- MANY reasons. And I’ll repeat it again: EASE OF USE.