Ah, don’t worry about it, Joe. Your comments just came off as “You’re acting like an irrational racist”, which, I can assure you, is not the case.
Thank you for the clarification.
Joe_Cool
[Moderator Hat ON]
No. 
Chill, guys. We also don’t really need posters called “goons” or “punks” in a debate either, as occured higher up in this thread. (BTW, did you know “punk” once meant “whore” and is also a slang term for a young man who “bottoms”? Your trivia for the day.)
[Moderator Hat OFF]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly *
**
Spoofe, you and I made a deal, and you are getting awfully close to going back on your word here. And please note, my support of Chas was his discussion of Mac and PC and Bill, not his rude remarks to your brother or anyone else.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly *
**
I have no idea how you managed to get from my A to your Z. The leap you have made here was right over my head, the heads of 12 people behind me, and into the lake.
Well, that’s what happens when you imagine things. PC’s *became * popular for a variety of reasons, not least being price. There was a time when Macs were significantly more expensive. That is no longer true and hasn’t been for quite awhile. PC’s * remain * popular because they are popular. And if PC folks didn’t believe that as well, they would have to abandon the argument against Mac that goes “there’s no software for the mac” . Software makers make the software that will sell a gazillion copies, so people buy the computers that they know they can buy any conceivable kind of software for. [sub](Or rather, the computer that people tell them is the only good one if you want access to infinite choices. What I would tell those people is this: Wintel has about 10 – 100 times the titles that Mac has. However, with the possible exception of some heavy duty business apps, you can find Mac equivalents of everything that they have for PC, often several. You just don’t have to wade through a hundred bad applications to get to one good one. The major exception to this is games. There are lots of great Mac games, including many PC titles. But if you are a hardcore gamer, you are probably going to be happier with a PC. )[/sub] And so it goes…
Did I ever say anything like that? No, I didn’t. And I don’t believe it to be true. I believe that Mac is better for most consumers and many small businesses, as well as graphics-intensive businesses and artists. Talk that fairly assesses an individual’s particular needs and covers all the possibilities is fine by me. Talk that amounts to: “Macs are expensive and there’s no software for them, don’t bother.” is destructive. And patently false. It is Mac bashing. To no good purpose.
If I thought that to start with. But what I start with is more like: “I believe I’m right, so I’ll say it.” I know I’m not right about everything. But I don’t claim to be right about everything. You just don’t notice because you don’t notice when I’m saying nothing at all. I don’t speak up about things unless I feel I’m right. Are you offering your firm and loud opinions because you think you’re wrong? That would be rather odd.
Oh shit, you got me there, Spoofe! What I really believe is that Apple is on the brink of putting Bill right into bankruptcy!
What have I said to anyone that is so harsh? Referring to ego being a factor in this (or any) debate? Is this a shocking revelation to anyone? Is that terribly vicious? I guess it would be much less harsh for me to just call people nutcases, eh?
And you can think whatever ill of me you like. Based on no evidence of it being true or even likely. But recognize that you are in essence calling me a liar. Not only that, my apparent motive for lying is simply to cover up my * real * motive for speaking out, which is to be shitty to people who disagree with me.
Well, now, isn’t ** that ** a lovely thing to accuse me of. :rolleyes:
stoid
I apologize to Chas.E for referring to him as a ‘goon’ and to Joe_Cool for referring to him as a ‘punk’. I will refrain from further usage of such personal insults.
It would be nice to see apologies from others who used such phrases as:
[ul]
[li]Obvious Troll[/li][li]Little Troll[/li][li](One who is) 17 going on 14[/li][li](Owner of) two functioning brain cells[/li][li]Asshole[/li][/ul]
And no, you didn’t apologize for calling me an asshole.
Joe, I read it as two ways: The first way I read it was as the joke which it was intended to be. The other way I read it was that you were calling me a racist. I didn’t think you would be calling me a racist, which is why I didn’t flame you right away.
Oh, Gaudere, you’re going to harp on one comment from Joe, but not on the 3 occasions that Chas.E called me a troll?
[Moderator Hat ON]
Monster104: In the first place, “Piss off, asshole” is clearly a damn sight more offensive than “troll”, and I do not consider a “no” and winky and a global request to “chill” as “harping.” “Troll” used solely to say “you’re just posting to stir things up” is tenatively allowed, if not endorsed (and this policy may change if I see the term becoming a general insult rather than a specific comment on posting motivations), and of course genuine troll-hunting is not allowed. The “two brain cells” comment was somewhat oblique, but I’ll admit that I simply didn’t notice it earlier.
Now: IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS ABOUT A MODERATOR’S ACTIONS, EMAIL OR POST IN THE PIT. DO NOT BITCH ABOUT IT IN THAT MOD’S FORUM. This has been policy for quite some time. This forum is for debates, not insults, and not whinging about moderator actions.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
Stoid has brought to light one reason why PC fans can get frustrated with Mac users. Some Mac users are so devoted to their platform that they feel the need to defend it’s reputation and secure it’s future. They see someone pointing out flaws in their product to undecided buyers as an attack on their way of life.
It’s a tool, not a way of life. Please don’t tell me I shouldn’t tell people considering to buy a Macintosh that they should reconsider. If you can’t counter my arguments against that choice well enough to convince them to buy a Mac, then maybe that’s not the best machine for them. The Macintosh isn’t the underdog because of some conspiracy against it, it’s the underdog because for 9 out of 10 people it’s the inferior choice. If you buy a PC, you will spend far less money for the same amount of power, there will be much more software available for your box, your machine will be more easily upgraded, it will be easier to find knowledgeable tech support for it, it will be easier to customize, and you will be learning the most popular operating system out there. If you buy a Mac, you will be paying a lot more money, you will have a limited assortment of software that is harder to find, upgrades will be expensive and difficult and sometimes impossible, and unless you are calling Apple you are going to have a hard time finding someone who knows your OS when you call tech support.
Macs are for a special market. I doubt they will ever achieve the mainstream status that the PC has, but there will probably be people buying them for some time, and maybe one day they will start trying to make a machine that fits in with the big picture of modern computing.
Frankly, I just don’t believe that. Many people use a computer to do a little word processing, email, Internet, light games (Solitaire) and just goofin’ off. A good little iMac will fulfill that niche, cheaply. AND it’ll be super easy, with a newbie-friendly OS, and super easy to set up and trouble shoot. I would have NO trouble recommending an iMac to such a consumer. And I think that there are A LOT of people out there (not just 1 in 10) that would fit the profile I’ve just given. They won’t be cracking open the case and upgrading (though you can upgrade an iMac a bit, HD, RAM, even the CPU) they won’t be doing anything too complicated. Just email and Internet. And a Mac can fulfill this just as well (or even better) than a PC. I know quite a few people that fit this profile. And you’ve already covered the other niches that would prefer Macs, like artsy people.
Maybe true, maybe not, depending on what you need to system for. Do you really think my 70 year old aunt (who just barely knows how to get on the Internet, and plays a lot of Solitaire) really needs a machine with a lot of extra power and customization options?
Yeah, Stoid has covered this well. Sure, there’s more software. Much of it’s kinda crappy and redundant. I don’t really feel like I am missing out on software on my Mac. And my demands, while not being too extravagant, are far more than your average Internet surfer/Solitaire player (of which there are many.)
For simple upgrades (like RAM) Macs can be pretty easy too. I cannot speak much about this issue, because I hyperventilate at the thought of opening a computer box. But I don’t think it is always a huge honkin’ deal for many consumers.
HA! Well, maybe you are right, in some areas. All I know is that when I got my first Mac, the Mac community embraced me so warmly, and were SO helpful, that I never felt “alone” and “lost”. I got all the tech support I needed. I felt that way more than once when I started out with Windows. I am spoiled by the Mac folk. They are awesome in helping their Mac brethren.
Yeah, I know, you also meant professional tech support. I wouldn’t know - I’ve never needed tech support for my Mac. 
Yeah, maybe. Some other Machead might be able to address this, I’m not into a lot of customization. All I know is that for my 70 year old aunt, and myself, it isn’t a big issue. Not all consumers care. Not all consumers want to mess with the Registry, not all consumers want to open up the box and add hardware and upgrade and mess with things. Some consumers want a little extra RAM after a while, maybe a processor upgrade, and they want to get on AOL. That’s all they want. And a Mac can do this JUST FINE.
I know there’s a lot more that a Mac can do just fine, or better than a PC. But I have to speak from what I know, and that’s what I know. The wonderful AHunter (for one) can address more complex Mac issues.
Whoop-de-frickin’ doo. You can always load Virtual PC on your Mac, if you want to learn the Most Popular Operating System Out There.
Not as much as you might think - it depends on the system. The iMac is pretty damned cheap, and even if it is a little more expensive, the ease of use and friendliness might make the extra cost REALLY worth it for many users.
I never found it hard to find. There is this thing called Mac Mall. And there are a lot of other resources out there. You just have to want to find them. I know first hand. I had to learn how to make my way in the Mac world, all by my lonesome, and I have done FINE. Sheesh. You act as if people cannot figure out how to find these Mac resources. They’ll find them. I did.
It can be frustrating, but there is this place called Mac Fixit, which I find very helpful. Seriously, I have no complaints. And I have some basis of comparison, since I started on PCs. These issues you bring up are not “issues” for me, and wouldn’t be issues for A LOT of consumers. Not all consumers, naturally, but more than 1 in 10.
Seriously - would you tell my 70 year old aunt that she REALLY ought to get a PC? She has a PC, because my computer whiz sister (the one that tried to steer me away from Macs a while back) was in charge of setting her up. I live in a different town, I have less influence. So I didn’t fight my aunt’s PC. But I personally think she’d be better off with a nice little iMac. She’s kinda lost on her PC, it’s taking her a long time to get used to it.
A LOT of people would be better off with Macs, they just are never informed of their options. They are bulldozed into PCs. I was, (by the aforementioned sister) so I know it happens.
The reasons I get annoyed with mac bigots are the same reasons I get annoyed with any bigots – they use horrible arguments to back up what they say. When it comes to most subjects, people are capable of recognizing this type of BS on their own. But with computers, the average person has no idea that when someone like Chas. E says “the Mac GUI is coded in every program, it HAS to be better than the PC version,” that it’s painfully obvious that he doesn’t know anything about software. This offends me, and as someone who is qualified to evaluate these types of arguments, I feel like I have to throw my two cents in and expose the spouters-of-BS for what they are (lest I end up having to do Mac tech support for my Mom because she believed some zealot when he said “Macs are faster” :)).
Another thing which offends me and makes me argue with zealots is the complete inability to see the other side of the argument. Anyone here should be able to look at either Windows or MacOS and see that they have their strong points. I don’t like Macs, but I don’t think being a Mac-head makes you an idiot. Being a mac zealot makes you an idiot.
I know plenty of people who are incredibly smart, well-trained and highly experienced software engineers who like macs better than PC’s. Most of them will admit that there are some technical aspects of the Mac which would be simply unacceptable in a modern OS if it weren’t for the fact that they love the Mac UI. Us less-forgiving tech-weenies really harp on these shortcomings. Unfortunately, nontechnical people have heard us chant “memory protection and preemptive multitasking” so often with no explanation that they are convinced it’s just techno-babble. The sad fact is that it’s not techno-babble, and these things really are critical in a really good OS. This is one of the reasons OS X has those two things. Praise Tannenbaum, a real OS arrives at Apple! (now we just have to wait for it to mature a wee bit. I’m very hopeful, but I’ve heard from several mac-weenie friends who got it hot off the presses that it’s a slow doggy dogg, and has trouble with lots of old apps. We’ll see.)
If your arguments against it were accurate, that would be one thing. But they aren’t. And I will always have a problem with that. Many, if not most, PC users who counsel against the Mac do so the way you did in this post: exaggerating, assuming, and stating things that are simply not true.
Stick to the facts, and stick to what is important to the person who is doing the buying, and you’ll have no problem from me.
stoid
Thank you for sparing me the effort. Well done.
stoid
We are definitely on the same side on this one!
**
How much is the cheapest new Imac on the market? I did some quick shopping and I found a Macintosh iMac w/ Power PC G3 233, 32MB, 4GB HD, 24X CD, 56K modem, for $919.
An equivelant PC, if you had one built for you (I don’t think there are any factory systems that underpowered on the market) would cost you under $500. For that same money you could have a PC with a gigaherz Athlon and 256MB of RAM built for you, or if we’re talking about a gramma who doesn’t know anyone who can build one for her or who feels better buying a factory package, she can pick up a Gateway for $799 with a 733Mhz processor, 128MB of RAM, a 48X CD, and a 20GB HD. That includes a 15" monitor. Gateway has excellent tech support too. That’s a lot more computer than she needs for just getting on the internet and doing word-processing, but if that’s all someone is going to use a computer for, then really any computer from the last 5 years would be adequate. I think if you are going to be using your computer for just a few things, you should try to get the best deal you can. A Macintosh isn’t a good deal.
For my grandmother? Macintosh all the way. The extra money is worth it for an operating system more people “get” right out of the gate. I’m firmly in the “MacOS is more intuitive than MS” camp.
Esprix
What? NEW iMac? Ha! What time warp are you stuck in, 1998? You obviously are out of touch, if that’s the best you can do. That’s a REV. A iMac. The FIRST iMac ever. They go for about $500-600 these days, from what I’ve seen. They came out in 1998, if memory serves.
From the Apple store, the cheapest iMac currently available is:
$899.00
400MHz
PowerPC G3
512K L2 cache
(at 160MHz)
64MB SDRAM
10GB Ultra ATA drive
CD-ROM
RAGE 128 Pro w/ 8MB
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
56K internal modem
15-inch display
Two USB ports
Two FireWire ports
Oh, it’s true, you could get some PC box for cheaper. But it wouldn’t have that user-friendly/gramma-friendly OS. And $900 for a computer (w/ monitor, since it’s built in with the iMac) is not that expensive.
Many good deals can be found on iMacs on eBay. With DVD, extra RAM, the works. They’re more expensive than PCs, but they’re still pretty damned reasonable. I never claimed that Macs were cheaper, but for many people, their ease-of-use will make the extra cost WORTH IT.
Monitor included? With Firewire? Sure, maybe, but would it be the same quality? Maybe, maybe not. But a lot of these cheap boxes are CHEAP, on the inside. Or so I’ve been told. I’m scared of them - I wouldn’t buy one. (I am going to replace my PC and Mac next year, hopefully.)
But it WORKS, is easy to trouble shoot. It is sublimely user-friendly, where the same cannot be said for Windows. And after all, if gramma can’t bloody figure out Windows, or is always ill at ease with it, how much of a bargain is it?
I started learning MacOS around the same time I was learning Win95 - I believe it was OS 7.1 at the time. My prior experience with PCs was Windows 3.1, but I hardly ever used it since I was already familiar with DOS - basically only went into Windows when there was a program that couldn’t be run from DOS.
My opinion? MacOS is somewhere between Win95 and Win3.1 in ease of use, has more in common with 3.1 than 95. I quit supporting Macs around the time 8.5 came out so I don’t know about the latest, but even then it worked like a simplified 3.1. I definitely picked up 95 a lot easier, it just seems so logical - you can get to nearly anything from the Start menu, but there are other shortcuts. I like the fact that I know that I can doubleclick on something to open it or right click to bring up a menu that allows me to do anything else to it. I think the window system is a lot more logical and practically laid-out - I like having all the controls in one corner. I love my systray, it makes switching from program to program so much easier, helps me keep track of everything I am doing. I think using the same menu bar for every program can be very confusing, I think it’s better to have each application have it’s own menu-bar (and I know technically it does in MacOS, but it’s complicated).
I just can’t see what is so much more user-friendly about Macs. Things usually took extra steps. Finding the right control panel for different devices was a pain. You had to fight the OS all the time - yes, I know these are safety measures to keep people from messing up their OS, but they should have put in an easy way to disable the babysitter for people who like their files to stay deleted when they are deleted, who like to hide programs from the OS temporarily for troubleshooting purposes, etc. Windows has protection, too. If you try to delete something that is important, it will warn you. If Gramma clicks ‘Yes’ when she’s asked if she really wants to remove this file, it may cause problems if removed, then she has problems, not the OS.
I think when Macintosh users complain about Windows being unintuitive, it’s just because they are so used to their OS. It’s actually very simple. You CAN make it more complicated, but if Gramma can just remember to start at the Start button, everything should be fine.
BTW, what does Gramma who is only using it for word processing and the internet need firewire for? 8^)
That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it, naturally. I don’t agree, at all.
After all, I learned Macs after PCs. I felt that so much of the Mac OS made sense, where with the PC, things were sometimes bass-ackwards. My opinion. And I’m not alone.
That’s not my story. I was used to Windows, and then branched out to Macs. I like Macs a lot. I prefer it in many ways. Sure, there are features that I like better in Windows too. But things make more sense, in my opinion, with a Mac. (Let me tell you the difference between installing my other sister’s digital camera on a Mac vs. PC, for instance. It’s a hilarious! Installing on a Mac requires the dragging of two files to a folder - installing on a PC requires - well, a Living Hell would describe it.) I have come across things like this a lot since I got into Macs. I own both Mac and PC, currently, so I am relatively up-to-date on both systems, and how things differ between them.
Sez you. How many gramma-types do you have in your life? I know several. And I seriously doubt that they’d do better with Windows. SERIOUSLY doubt. But maybe you’re right, for some grammas. But not all, probably not many.
Maybe an extra HD, (to share all those MP3s she downloads :D) or a Zip Drive. Or a CD-RW drive. (Toast is pretty easy to use, even for Gramma.) And firewire is faster than USB, after all.
Well, my mother and my sisters are all grammas. I taught my mother to use Win98 with no problem (and she’s not very computer-literate). She commented that it made a lot more sense than the old Windows (3.1 on my old 486). My sister uses Windows (not sure whether she’s upgraded from 95 yet, though).
Installing new devices on a Windows machine should be a lot simpler than dragging some folders. Restarting the computer and going through a simple wizard should do it. I’ve never had problems personally with plug and play, though I do know some people have. USB makes things even easier. I don’t have firewire on any of my machines because I don’t need it.
Tell me, what is it about Windows that you think is so difficult for people to learn?