Stoid: My comments to you still stand. Rather than engage in another “Yes! No! Yes! No!” match, I’ll simply withdraw from your particular line of argument.
Yosemitebabe: I guaran-damn-tee you that I can put a better PC together for cheaper than an Mac. More RAM, larger hard drive, better sound and video, better monitor… for less. And call me crazy, but I’ve found the things I’ve built myself to be more reliable than any factory-built, minimal-upgrade-potential machine with a dinky monitor.
Are they 55-70 years old?
Should??? It ISN’T!!! Installing my printer, zip drive, USB CD-RW drive, Wacom Tablet, ALL are more difficult on PC. I know. I share all these bits of hardware between my PC and Mac.
And that is easier than just dragging two files to a folder, and viola, the digital camera works? How? I cannot even relate the torture installing this camera to a PC will be. (I haven’t done it yet. God Forbid.)
USB makes things easier, but with Windows, at least for me, it’s still “iffy”. My Wacom tablet is always being “dropped” by the PC. Same with the CD-RW. Installing the CD-RW drive was HELL. I could go on. Installations were not always 100% seamless with the Mac, but always, always they were easier than with the PC.
Macs rarely need “Wizards”, in my experience. My Zip Drive just MOUNTED on my desktop, first time I ever hooked it up. That’s what Macs DO. I plugged it in, the Mac recognized it. Simple. Then I can install the Iomega software, if I want, but I think with OS 8.5 and up the Iomega software is already there. Easy easy easy. With the PC, I need to … what? I can’t even remember. I installed a parallel port Zip on an older PC, and it was a hassle. I think it requres a floppy disk install, and at least one reboot. And this is easier than just plugging it in - how?
See above. Also - uninstall. With the Mac, it’s called the TRASH. With PC, it’s a special “uninstall” program, yadda yadda yadda. And maybe things won’t go right, even if you use the uninstall program. And there are other details, like inconsistent keyboard shortcuts. There’s more, much more. But I’m tired, and I need to get to some Photoshop work tonight! 
My Mom is 66. Eldest sister is 46 I believe.
I agree, a custom-made PC from a reliable maker is the way to go. That’s what my current PC is. And that’s what I’ll be getting when I get a new PC, next year. I’ve priced the custom-made PCs from local companies, and they’re about $700-800+ for the configurations I want (w/o monitor). And I CANNOT, and will not, ever build a PC myself. You can, and you enjoy it, and you are obviously a PC guy, down to the bone. More power to you. But I’m not, neither is my auntie, neither are a lot of grammas. They WON’T be building their PCs, they won’t be getting that cheap deal.
But that isn’t really the main issue. It’s also the OS, ease of use, ease of installation, ease of troubleshooting with the Mac. And in my opinion (and many people’s opinions) the Mac has it over Windows. So any extra cost for a Mac is WORTH IT.
How much time have sisters and Mom spent with a Mac? Do you know for sure that if they spent time with Macs and PCs equally before choosing a platform, that they’d prefer PCs?
(And 46 is not old, by the way.)
'Babe…
I like you. I always have. And I’m not disagreeing with you in the slightest. I’m not saying that Windows is better than the MacOS. In fact, I don’t care a whit about the MacOS.
I’m merely offering my suggestion that you’re probably pursuing this with a tad too much zealotry.
And with that, I’m bowing out of this thread, not in the mood to deal with any form of antagonism whatsoever. It’s been too long since anyone’s started a Breast Thread…
And I’ve always liked you too, Spoofe. I hope you know, there is no ill-will in any of this for me. I’m just using this thread as an excuse to procrastinate from my Photoshop work that waits!
No - I just feel a little frustrated that people who are not in the unique position I am (using both systems, side-by-side) can assume that just because they prefer something, 9 out of 10 people will too.
I have BOTH systems. I like 'em both. I prefer my Mac in a lot of ways, it’s captured my heart. But, hey. A nicely set up PC gives me the sighs as well. I like them both, I see merit in them both. And I just want people to be informed. I’m not a computer expert, in a lot of ways, I represent Jane Average Computer User. So I think I have valuable insights to share.
I realize that a lot of people are going to “go with the flow” and get a PC. And I don’t lose sleep over it. But it seems crappy to not at least tell them their options in a little more balanced manner. I wish I had been told that when I got my first computer. And I wasn’t, as I have discussed previously.
Do you see where I’m going here? I think I’m trying to fight ignorance. Yeah, and rant a bit. But certainly I’m not pissed at anyone. Sheesh!
Well, there can never be enough breast threads! 
But don’t bow out on my account. I haven’t hurled any insults. I’m not flamin’ mad at anyone. These are computers. They’re not a religion, they’re not a political philosophy. They are just a product, a tool. A damned fun tool, to be sure!
I think it’s a rarity when someone learns both platforms simultaneously. In most cases, whatever you learn first is going to be the easiest one for you - whenever you try something different, even if you only worked with Windows for a day or two first, you are going to compare it to what you already know. I’m just saying that there is nothing about Windows that is inherently difficult to learn - there is no reason why it should take someone longer to figure out the basic operation of a Windows machine than one running MacOS. Most of the problems you have had with Windows are not problems someone who used the system for just basic applications and internet stuff would run into - uninstalling programs? Never had problems with it myself, but granny probably isn’t going to bother for some time. Installing new hardware? Not that it’s difficult, but it’s not something a very basic user is going to be doing.
That, I think, is a valid frustration. The worry of your preferred platform eventually becoming completely obsolete is also a valid frustration. I simply dispute the notion - whether the implication that I picked up be deliberate or not - that ANYbody on either side of the debate has more of a right to espouse their preferences than the other.
Now, I’m not saying anyone’s believing that… it’s simply a feeling that brushed across my mind.
In other words, inaccurate information is bad. I see where you’re coming from, and I agree wholeheartedly. And I know you understand where I’m comin’ from, so I guess you and I don’t have much left to debate.
However, now we have to discuss the fact that the GeForce-3 video cards are going to be released only on Mac’s… grr, you damn Mac users!
Squink, since you asked, I’ll cite you some very specific technical things about the MacOS which are holdovers from the days of overly-simplistic PC OS design, and which are the main culprits behind some bad behaviors that make it impossible for me to use a Mac without pulling my hair out. This is not a mac-bashing post, and I would like to concede right up front that Macs finally have OS X, which truly interests me, and has none of the faults I mention, plus has some really innovative UI stuff. I’m a unixhead at heart, so I look forward to using OS X.
Anyway, the problems with MacOS which I hate:
It is true that a Windows (or Linux) machine can crash just as frequently as a Mac, but those crashes are usually due to strange driver issues and hardware interaction. This is not to be discounted, but the key difference is that it’s quite possible to build a very stable PC (with, say, Windows2000) which won’t crash as long as you use specific configurations with known good drivers, and don’t abuse it. It’s impossible to make such a Mac, because every piece of software on it has the ability to accidentally kill the machine countless numbers of ways. The most common C programming errors will bring a Mac down. It just ain’t right.
Non-reentrant toolbox calls
This is going to be a difficult one for a non-programmer to understand (and my apologies if you’re a programmer, or if you otherwise already understand this for some other inexplicable reason – I’m writing for everyone here), but here it is in layman’s terms: The Toolbox is the set of system routines which make up the mac’s core functionality. When the user starts dragging a window, a toolbox routine is called to track the mouse movement until he lets go, for example. “Re-entrant” is a term programmers use to describe a routine which can be called by two different processes at the same time. Unfortunately, lots of the UI stuff in the toolbox is non-reentrant, which means that if one program calls the menu manager, for example, another one can’t until the first one is done. One way this is enforced is that while an app is calling a non-reentrant toolbox function, it can’t be interrupted, so other apps are effectively frozen. This has pretty large performance implications.
Cooperative multitasking
Modern OS’s allow a process to run for a small chunk of time, then they forcibly take the processor away from that process (called “pre-empting”) and give it to another process for a while. In cooperative multitasking, the process itself gets to decide when it’s time to give other processes a chance on the CPU. The preemptive approach is far superior in terms of performance, because when the foreground process is doing things like waiting on I/O, it’s using almost zero CPU resources, but in a cooperative system, odds are that a process waiting on I/O has not explicitly given up the processor, which means those cycles are going to waste. The performance implications here are astounding if you’re ever doing more than one thing at once (which is a lot more often than most people think: can anyone say “file sharing”? If you so much as hold your mouse down on the file menu for 10 seconds while you peruse the items, you’re likely causing people looking at your shares to timeout or stall).
Note that you can easily come up with benchmarks which show a cooperative multitasking outperforming preemptive multitasking, but only for very specific tasks. Running a photoshop filter is an excellent example. If your photoshop filter gets 100% of the CPU cycles until it is done, it’s gonna run circles around the one on the PC which gets pre-empted thousands of times per minute. I, however, prefer an OS which lets me start a photoshop filter or a compile, and still have reasonable performance in my browser while I wait. This is totally doable because the two tasks don’t contend for the same resources, so they shouldn’t be waiting for each other to step aside.
Sorry for the lengthy reply. I tried to keep it strictly factual, as I don’t want to be accused of mac-bashing. Performance-wise, these are complaints which can easily be ignored by people who either perform one specific task at a time on their computer, or don’t demand that much of it anyway. The protected memory is a little harder to ignore, because it really affects stability, but in my experience, people are completely willing to overlook that as well, in favor of the Mac UI they love. To many, that’s a fair trade. I just wish more people knew it was a tradeoff they were making, rather than blindly believing that Macs are just better.
Spoofe, glad things are cleared up!
So is your answer that your mom and sisters tried Windows first, and have little or no experience with Macs? I am not sure what you’re saying here.
I am not convinced of that. Sure, everyone differs, but I sure do see a bigger learning curve when you have to jump through hoops to install some hardware on a PC, where you just have to PLUG IT IN with a Mac. And as I said before, some keyboard shortcuts on Windows are not consistent. There are a lot of irritating things about Windows that I just accepted before I got my Mac. Then I discovered that it was not an issue with Macs. And this irritated me, because I realized that things could be easier.
Is Windows just impossibly hard? Not really, I learned it. But is Mac easier in some areas? Sure, I think so. Some people might not think so. But if they never get to choose, but have one platform presented to them as the ONLY platform option, how are they gonna know?
True enough - I guess if all Granny does is click on that AOL button, maybe there isn’t much difference. If Granny doesn’t want to print, if Granny doesn’t want to save to a Zip drive, if Granny has a obliging grandkid to come over and help her every time something freezes up or crashes. Sure. But troubleshooting is still easier on the Mac, and setting up an iMac is SURE easier, no doubt about it!
Well, most people need printers, right? Well, I think most people use printers, if for no other reason than to print out that AOL mail. And a lot of casual users may decide they need a Zip drive, to save all those MP3s or big image files of the grandkids. And there will be the people who may get a cheapo USB digital camera. Digital cameras are a big thing, you know. From what I read, the plethora of digital cameras currently coming out are better supported on PCs, but still… Judging from my little experience, installing one is sure much easier on a Mac.
You may feel that PCs are just as easy for some people, and you may be right, for some people. They are cheaper. But for a lot of people, like my auntie, and a lot of other Granny types, PCs are not a “superior” choice, Macs are not an “inferior” choice. It’s not so cut-and-dried, and I seriously doubt that only 10% of the computer using population would find Macs “inferior”, if they only were presented with balanced information, instead of innaccurate, biased BS.
Are you saying Macs never freeze or crash?
I don’t think anything I said qualifies as ‘BS’. Macs crash too, and as pointed out by Galt, a Mac crash is going to be a bigger problem than your typical PC crash.
I have had very little problems with lockups on my Win98 systems. I’ve had one computer for almost two years and it has only hard-frozen on me once, every other problem has been some error generated by an app, and a CTRL ALT DEL got me out of it. My other system is about 10 months old, and I have had a few more problems with it, but mostly it’s old DOS based programs locking it up (and I suspect it has a corrupt CD-ROM driver).
I think a lot of problems people have with PCs comes from them not following directions. Windows doesn’t like to close your apps and change things without asking you if it’s OK first (though it does that more with each version, it seems), so it will often ask the user to do things like closing all programs before installing new software, hardware, etc. It doesn’t force you to, and if you don’t it can lead to later problems.
Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm. I’d hate to be lumped in with folks whose view is that Windows is “just as easy” to use as a Mac. I think that’s patently false in many cases. Installing hardware is an excellent example. Sure, the best case in windows is that your hardware is recognized and the wizard pops up and walks you through driver installation, but the much much more common case is that the wizard doesn’t automatically find a driver, and when you try to install the one from the disk supplied with your hardware, the .inf file was badly written and it can’t even find its own files on the CD! At this point, Grandma is s-c-r-e-w-e-d. Simply put, this does not happen on a Mac. This is, of course, partially due to the fact that the PC hardware came from HOANG DANG NUMBER ONE COMPUTOR CORP and the instructions were in Korean, whereas you only had the choice of a few very major brands for the Mac, and the price was higher, but to a lot of people it’s worth it.
Sure, but my PC crashes more than my Mac.
Well, I won’t be unkind and call it “BS”. You aren’t deliberately doing it. But you thought that the “latest” iMac was a 233 MHz Rev. A from 1998, and you thought it sold for $900+. And you were incorrect. Had you told some computer newbie that, it would be, in essence, BS. Not deliberate BS, but the end result would be the same.
You’ve almost acted as if using a “wizard” to install hardware, and then rebooting is just as easy as PLUGGING SOMETHING IN. I mean, I get the feeling that you think there isn’t a big difference. There is. Believe me, there is. Or at least a lot of people would think there is.
Of course, that’s true for anything, including Macs. But I think a lot of problems people have with Windows is that it is not very forgiving. Newbies can’t know all of it, can’t know all the “rules” right out of the box. It’s been a long time since you were a newbie, you’ve probably forgotten what it’s like. I still am learning things, and I am appalled at what I didn’t know when I got my first PC. Bless it, it didn’t spontaniously combust!
A few months ago I had my PC reformatted and had Windows reinstalled by a friend of mine who is MSCE, and it still gives me problems. I try to be careful and prudent, but there is only so much you can do. My friend tells me to try not to install too much software. And I’m careful, I don’t slap on any old bit of shareware on there. (I have a habit of doing that - it’s fun!) But I wonder - what the hell is the use of having a computer if you can’t bloody install the software that you want to install?!? I am glad you haven’t had problems. I have a feeling it’s because you really know Windows, and you know what you’re doing. Many people don’t. That’s the problem.
Sure, you can mess up a Mac, but it’s easier to fix. Just my experience. I find I’m much braver with my Mac. I have my friend talk me through fixing something serious with my PC. And I’ve learned more than the ‘average Internet surfer’ at this point. I’m no expert, but I’m no longer a newbie. And I find that Windows just gives me more problems.
galt: Thanks, you’re right on about the hardware thing!
I did not say that was the latest iMac! I was looking for the cheapest. Why are you putting ‘latest’ in quotes? I don’t think you will see that word (or at least, not in that context) in that post. We were talking about cheap computers, and I looked for one of the cheapest non-used Imacs I could find.
Sheesh.
Grandma + iMovie + camcorder + grandchildren = Ten bazillion dollars of joy.
If you haven’t seen the magic that happens when you throw an adulating parent/grandparent, precious tykes, and iMovie, you really have to try it sometime…
For her it’s a valid concern, but for me it’s simply a cover for my nefarious desire to atack my fellow posters?
Riiiiiight. Glad you cleared that up. :rolleyes:
stoid
disgusted
I have long been sad that the Mac had these weaknesses as well. But neve so sad that it would prompt me to switch, because the price I would pay in other ways would be much too high. And of all the Mac users I know (which is most of my friends, though not my fiance, this debate goes on under my own roof!!) there is only one besides myself that knows or cares in the slightest about these issues. She is a graphics professional who feels the same way I do: it sure would be nice to increase performance and not crash the whole damn machine, but not if it means using Windows.
And I’m annoyed as hell with Apple… OSX fixes all this…but it (according to what I hear and read, I haven’t tried it) it breaks everything else about it that makes it the OS I know and love. I am sticking with 9.04 until I have absolutely no choice, and X has had a chance to settle down a bit.
Hrmph.
stoid
I have long been sad that the Mac had these weaknesses as well. But neve so sad that it would prompt me to switch, because the price I would pay in other ways would be much too high. And of all the Mac users I know (which is most of my friends, though not my fiance, this debate goes on under my own roof!!) there is only one besides myself that knows or cares in the slightest about these issues. She is a graphics professional who feels the same way I do: it sure would be nice to increase performance and not crash the whole damn machine, but not if it means using Windows.
And I’m annoyed as hell with Apple… OSX fixes all this…but it (according to what I hear and read, I haven’t tried it) it breaks everything else about it that makes it the OS I know and love. I am sticking with 9.04 until I have absolutely no choice, and X has had a chance to settle down a bit.
Hrmph.
stoid