Tuckerfan, we don’t have selective service registration in Canada, and haven’t had the draft (or conscription) since WWII.
I always get teary-eyed when I read Coldfire’s awesome post. I’m just a reservist in the Canadian Forces, but my grand-father was in one of the first of the British units in the war (he was in the Welsh Territorials when war broke out), and served in the occupation forces until 1946.
The defacing of the cenotaph is despicable, regardless of the vandal’s motives or goals.
True, but having heard lots of anti-war hysteria in my day (I was in my early twenties when the Gulf War broke out, and a prime candidate for the draft, if one had come about here in the US.) and have heard the convuluted thinking that often runs through these people’s minds. The Gulf War was supposed to turn into another Vietnam, lasting a decade and turning into a quagmire that the US couldn’t escape from. No doubt, some of the antiwar types are convinced that the US will pressure Canada into getting involved in a war in Iraq if it drags on for a long period of time, and a draft will get reinstituted and “the young flowers” of Canada will be forced to go and die all in the name of US territorial aggression.
Total bullshit, of course. If the US does go into Iraq, the war will probably last about as long as the last one did, and even if it did turn into a quagmire, Canada’s participation would no doubt be limited. (After all, you guys don’t have the level of military equipment that the US and Britain does, and for Canada to even begin to build up her resources to the point where she can have large numbers of military personnel in the field would no doubt take a decade or more.)
I could see it taking a few years to put a major army in the field, but a decade is a little ridiculous. It doesn’t take that long to build some tanks and train guys to drive them.
I would think any rich, industrialized nation could convert itself into a powerful, strategic-level war economy in twelve months.
The Allied armies of WWII, of course, being a perfect example. Both Canada and the USA ramped up in a year to two years.
Except, of course, in the case of the US (I don’t know about Canada), we’d already begun the process of the military build up long before we entered the war. We were building all kinds of military hardware for the Brits, so it wasn’t too difficult for us to ramp up once the US entered the war. (Of course, there weren’t too many consumer goods being produced at that time.) Additionally, the military hardware was a lot simpler back then, and not filled with electronics as it is today.
Then there’s the current level of Canada’s military strength. The Canadian Navy has a mere three subs (not that those would be needed in a war against Iraq), and one Canadian military official, when asked about the Navy’s ability to meet its NATO commitments if a major war were to erupt was quoted as saying, “We can put the required number of ships into the field, and some of them can even defend themselves.” Perhaps, the other branches of Canada’s military are in better shape. I certainly hope so, but given the level of grumbling I’ve heard from the Dopers who’ve served in her military, I’m not so sure.
So while it might not take a decade, I can’t imagine that it would take less than five years.
A Senate committee (made mostly of Liberal members, much to the embarassment of the government) has recommended that all Canada’s armed forces be pulled from international duty for two years and an infusion of $400 milllion or so be given to get them back up to fighting shape (or about even with Portugal, as one member commented). Can’t say as I disagree, though the defence minister apparently does. So they seem to think it can done shorter than five.
The issue isn’t the current state of Canada’s military - it’s that it simply does not take ten years to construct a substantial military force. An industrialized nation can do it in a few years.
Canada DOES need to revisit its defense spending, but not before it revisits its national defense plan. I’m loathe to say we should be spending more money on the Forces before we have a PLAN for spending that money, because if we don’t have a plan, the money will be wasted. Canada really needs to revamp its military mission; presently it’s a hodgepodge of “Send guys on UN missions” month-by-month planning on top of a Cold War organizational structure.
Just so we’re clear, Tuckerfan, Canada did have forces in Desert Storm, both combat and support. We sent several destroyers, a hospital unit, and CF-18’s flew 2,700 CAP missions.
As a Canadian, I appreciate everyone’s posts here.
On the matter of how long it would take for Canda to mobilize for a major conflict one could look at what happened in World War 1.
In 1914 the Canadian military numbered less then 10,000 and it was only in 1917 that conscription was implemented as only then was the number of new volunteers exceeded by the losses in the field. Canada had 600,00 men and women involved in the war effort between 1914-1919. That equates to 1 in 10 Canadians.
IN WW2 Canada had approx 1,000,000 men and women involved in the war effort.
In all, more than 100,000 Canadians gave their lives through two world wars and many of them are buried throughout the lands they fought to defend. 11,500 of them are buried at Vimy Ridge where the French government has set aside land as a memorial to those brave soldiers.
I would like to remember just a couple of those men.
My great grandfater was a member of the Scottish Black Watch regiment, some of the toughest sons of bitches to ever wear a kilt. It has been said that when the Germans heard the sound of bagpipes they would give up even the most secure positions knowing that they didn’t have a chance of winning. He fought in the trenches against the Kaiser’s forces and was one of the fortunate ones to return home to his family and eventually emigrate to Canada.
My friend Bill, who fought in WW2. I have told the tale of his reaction to having to deal with modern day neo nazis and his comments to them of “I fought you sons of bitches 50 years ago and will fight you now”. Bill could hardly cross the steet because of respiratory and heart problems but I am sure he could have managed to hand out an ass whupping of epic proportions if the situation warranted such an action.
My uncle was a farm boy from central Alberta who travelled to Europe, fought, and was there to liberate those unfortunates from the concentration camps, he was so traumatized he refused to speak of what he saw and did while overseas. It was only at his funeral that people were able to see the the medals that had been hidden away for more than half a century indicating how much a simple farm boy could do when he was defending his family and the families of others.
The people who desecrated this monument have insulted the memory of our ancestors.
It is a grave crime.
It’s interesting that the “group” calling itself “Free Poppies” (Or Pavots Libre) seems to have manifested only this once, for this single ugly crime, and has absolutely no web-presence or history of contact with anyone in the activist community.
It’s almost as though they don’t exist.
I’m leaning more and more towards the provacateur theory.
Either that or it’s some 13-year-old with his head up his ass.
I think elucidator meant that 'Nam vets didn’t get harassed, contrary to urban legend.
That’s very interesting, Larry. As you may know, I’m somewhat present in the local activist community, and I haven’t heard anything from these guys either. I’m going to an anti-war demo on Sunday, though, and I’ll report back if I see anything.
Hey, no insult meant to Canada at all. Just quoting what I read once. IAC, Canada is not alone in having a military that is a former shell of what it once was. The main reason the US led most of the fighting in Afghanistan is because its the only NATO member to significantly update its military services since the Gulf War. Even then, the US military in many ways is not what it should be. Until recently the slogan of the military was, “Do more with less.” According to one news story I read, if the US were to undertake more than two Afghanistan-style campaigns at once, it’d would tax the military’s resources to the breaking point. (Which leads me to believe that the US is going after Iraq, so that it can get the most difficult troublemaker out of the way, before going after the various other bad guys. Sort of a 21st Century version of McArthur’s “Island Hopping” campaign.)
I still don’t think that the US or any of the other industrialized nations could ramp up their military forces as rapidly as they did at the start of WW II. Comparing military hardware from WW II to modern equipment, is akin to comparing a Model T to a modern car. Plus, the US has lost a lot of it’s industrial base (I don’t know about Canada, so the case may be different there.), and a lot of critical electronics aren’t manufactured here, merely assembled. Which means the US would have to embark on a crash course of building the infrastructure necessary to ramp up it’s military or risk having very long supply lines. Of course, this is all academic discussion as the likelihood of either the US or Canada having to do this is slim to none. (This does bring to mind a quote from Will Rogers: “If you want to know when the next war will start, simply watch to see when the US cuts its military spending. As soon as it does that, you know there’s going to be a war.” [I’m quoting from memory, so I probably don’t have it right, but that’s the gist of what he said.])