Pedophiliacs: Should we feel sympathy for them?

[fuzzypickles]

@Cesario

For more information on why it’s scarce, you might want to look up the Rind et. al, contravercy.

No argument there – all this knee-jerk hysteria over pedophilia actually does far more harm than good, and potentially puts more children at risk.

@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet

There used to be some online messageboards. The only reason I know about them is b/cI was doing some reading on the book " I Know My First Name Is Steven" ,which in turn led me to Better a Millstone which then had links to the online messageboards. I used to lurk at them…

Last I checked they’re still around, though many of the original participants are not (for obvious reasons.) BAM died with it’s creator, however.

[Shodan]

@gaffa

This bit:

*If a biological basis for psychopathy could be established and pharmacological treatments developed, the idea that many people have at least a little of the psychopath in them could well become accepted. As Kiehl points out, “It used to be the case that it was very hard to meet clinical criteria for depression in the fifties and sixties. However, the definition of depression has been broadened so much with DSM-IV that nearly every person will meet the criteria at some point in their lives. One reason for this is that drug companies have lobbied to change the criteria—because they have a treatment, a drug, that can help people even with moderate levels of depression. It’s a completely different issue whether this is appropriate.” He added that “even moderate levels of psychopathy may someday be considered a disorder—especially if we can treat it.”
*

Well, no offense, but you said -

I think a budding pedophile like the young Charles Crumb might have been re-oriented if his orientation had been identified early enough,

There is no evidence in your cite that pedophiles (or psychopaths) can be re-oriented. The researcher in question wants to identify psychopaths so he can start researching a cure. Whether or not he will ever be successful, we don’t know.

@Cesario

It’s wrong to harm a child. I’m not prepared to agree until I know the extent of your definition of “act on it”…

“Act on it” in the sense of “ever having sexual contact with a child”. Since children are not capable of consent, all sexual contact with children is rape by definition.

Or more accurately, the needs of my ten year old self, who was feeling damn opressed at that point, and who resolved that no one should have to suffer like he did.

This is what I was talking about. It would not matter in the slightest to me if some pedophile mentioned a desire to keep children from being as miserable as he was as a child as a justification of his sexual advances towards a child. This is not a sufficient excuse, and would not (in my view) make any difference to how he should be treated.

Yes, people with impulse control problems need to be prevented from causing harm.

Yes, by any means necessary.

@Shodan

There are some things for which no excuse will suffice. If an adult molests a child, it doesn’t matter why he did it. The important fact is that he did it. One time is too many; therefore twice is an unacceptable risk.

Do you feel the same about adult rapists?

Yes, I do.

It might also involve a war. There isn’t a lot that’d motivate me to kill, and very little that would motivate me to risk dying, especially for total strangers, but preventing brainwashing like this would be one of those things. I don’t believe I am alone in that assessment.

I don’t think it would go as far as war, but see what I said above about “any means necessary”.

This has not been my experience, nor has it been the experience of pretty much any of the pedophiles or molestation victims I’ve spoken with. Still, I admit my evidence is anecdotal, and would gladly conceed if presented with a valid academic source.

A variety of different theories exist as to the causes of pedophilia. A few researchers attribute pedophilia along with the other paraphilias to biology. They hold that testosterone, one of the male sex hormones, predisposes men to develop deviant sexual behaviors. As far as genetic factors are concerned, as of 2002 no researchers have claimed to have discovered or mapped a gene for pedophilia.

Most experts regard pedophilia as resulting from psychosocial factors rather than biological characteristics. Some think that pedophilia is the result of having been sexually abused as a child. Still others think that it derives from the person’s interactions with parents during their early years of life. Some researchers attribute pedophilia to arrested emotional development; that is, the pedophile is attracted to children because he or she has never matured psychologically. Some regard pedophilia as the result of a distorted need to dominate a sexual partner. Since children are smaller and usually weaker than adults, they may be regarded as nonthreatening potential partners. This drive for domination is sometimes thought to explain why most pedophiles are males.

Read more: Pedophilia - children, causes, DSM, functioning, therapy, adults, person, people

Cite.

Regards,
Shodan

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@Jonathan_Chance

And that does lead to a certain amount of ‘Dude, sucks to be you’ feeling on my part. In a world that’s gotten much more liberal about things sexual over the last 50 years they find themselves in a spot that has a bright white line drawn around it and they can never be allowed to follow their sexual instincts without being in danger of the law and being utterly ostracized by society. They must, forever, refrain from sexual activity that seems right to them.

I feel sorry for them. I feel even sorrier for their innocent victims.

Given we have two sorry populations. I believe it is incumbant upon society to search for solutions that can eradicate the problem. Whatever we are doing today seems quite ineffective.

I propose we consider that all young males at some post pubescent age be required to submit to a physical evaluation whereby penis response to pictures of young children in bathing suits is measured.

Those who are identified at risk can then be subjected to counseling which could offer coping mechanisms from response techniques to arousal all the way to permanent castration. The sooner the problem is dealt with, the more effective the treatment.

Yes, there’s a civil liberties issue here. I don’t like to be subjected to a breath test for alcohol consumption either. . So what.

[Freudian_Slit]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

I propose we consider that all young males at some post pubescent age be required to submit to a physical evaluation whereby penis response to pictures of young children in bathing suits is measured.

Those who are identified at risk can then be subjected to counseling which could offer coping mechanisms from response techniques to arousal all the way to permanent castration. The sooner the problem is dealt with, the more effective the treatment.

Yes, there’s a civil liberties issue here. I don’t like to be subjected to a breath test for alcohol consumption either. . So what.

If you’re serious, that is WHACK. For one thing, lots of people get aroused at the drop of a hat. Erections can indicate nervousness, fear, anxiety in addition to just plain arousal, especially if you’re a post pubescent but still young male.

I suppose you could try to compare their arousal to children with their arousal to other things. It’s still an insane violation of rights. A thought crime essentially.

And of course there will be some who will be able to conceal their arousal by thinking of bear traps and gonorrhea while still being turned on by kids.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

Yes, there’s a civil liberties issue here. I don’t like to be subjected to a breath test for alcohol consumption either. . So what.

So you advocate all males be subjected to a penile tumescence test? A test which isn’t reliable for screening for pedophilic tendencies in the first place?

Then we can move on to dunking suspected witches!

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Cesario

Do you exclusively adult attracted individuals really find not raping people to be such a difficult task that you need professional help to keep yourselves in check? If no, why do you assume that pedophiles are different?

It is not a difficult task to not rape people because there is ample room for acceptable sexual expression. Most people can get laid, if nothing else they can hire a prostitute. They can access strip clubs. They can access pornography.

A pedophile has no such outlets (well, there is child porn but accessing that is pretty much as bad as molesting a kid since someone abused a child to appease someone else’s appetite for kiddie porn).

@Cesario

Interesting. How do these numbers compare to other offenders? Violent offenders? Nonviolent offenders? “Normal” rapists?

Here are stats on that:

Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.

The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 accounted for nearly 4,877,000 arrest charges over their recorded careers.

Within 3 years of release, 2.5% of released rapists were rearrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for a new homicide.

Sex offenders were less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense –– 43 percent of sex offenders versus 68 percent of non-sex offenders.

Sex offenders were about four times more likely than non-sex offenders to be arrested for another sex crime after their discharge from prison –– 5.3 percent of sex offenders versus 1.3 percent of non-sex offenders.

SOURCE: Home | Bureau of Justice Statistics

[YogSothoth]

I think we should feel as bad for them as anyone with an intrinsic sexual preference we find objectionable.

[gonzomax]

Well god made them that way. Who are we to judge gods work?

[hotflungwok]

@Cesario

Maybe this information will help:

This differentiates between a strict definition of a pedophile, someone who is sexually attracted exclusively to children, and someone for whom that attraction is not exclusive. While this may be useful statistically, in practice I see no difference. People who want have sex with children are people who want to have sex with children.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Cesario

You should see someone about that impulse-control problem you’ve got.

I have an impulse problem because I flirt with guys I think are cute? Look, a lot of people who aren’t pedophiles do this. It’s natural. I don’t always have to analyze every situation. If a cute guy smiles at me or does something sort of flirty, I’ll flirt back without thinking, “Wait, am I reading too much into this? Is he just being nice, am I coming on to strong?” If you start acting that same way with a kid, it’s weird.

My point is that you, as a pedophile, have to be on guard against making sure you do something untoward. Most people don’t. I can usually tell when a guy really wants to kiss me or is attracted to me. Just as in a lot of cases a guy can tell when I’m interested in him. In some cases, that’s awkward/uncomfortable. In others, it’s awesome. But for you to ever let a kid know you feel that way is unacceptable because you’re saddling them with way too much information that they shouldn’t be dealing with.

Wait, there’s something wrong with a kid thinking they’re special or awesome? So much for self-esteem.

I think you’re being deliberately obtuse. It’s wrong to make a kid think they’re special when you’re doing it so that they’ll think molestation is normal.

[Triskadecamus]

I have a tendency toward greed, gluttony, and sloth. It is my nature. It isn’t something that I can magically change about myself.

You might decide that it is pitiable, that I remain hungry, and feel needy, and cannot find it in myself to work to satisfy those desires. Pity me.

But that does not in any way justify behavior on my part such as stealing, or imposing my needs on you. The fact that I really love candy doesn’t make it ok to take candy from babies. The fact that it is easy to do it doesn’t change that either.

I want things that society says I cannot have. The fact that i want them does not imply that society should tolerate my attempts to get them.

Tris

[VinylTurnip]

@gaffa

For some reason people are a lot more forgiving of the behavior of famous “eccentric artists” (Picasso confessed to raping his models).

If this is true, I’ll be the first one to call him an asshole.

[constanze]

@gaffa

I think pedophiles should be allowed to purchase computer-generated/modified porn featuring underage characters, because it’s clear that everyone needs an erotic outlet. I believe that this will reduce the chances of real children being harmed. As a married heterosexual male who has to spend a lot of time away from my wife, I know the ready availability of porn has made these long separations bearable, and I’ve never been tempted to stray. I believe the same would apply to pedophiles - porn availability would make having a socially harmful sexual orientation bearable, as long as no real children were involved.

Yes, I want options for pedophiles to safely live out their desires without harming real children. I wonder about whether allowing virtual child porn - that is, made with video software, not with real children - would help or hinder pedophiles. I do not know of any studies done - does anybody know whether watching virtual porn would deflate desire or increase it?

There was a thread some time ago about whether completly digital videos of child porn should be forbidden, or only real child porn (thus documents of real abuse). One problem was how to differentiate between the two.

Maybe we could set up projects with social workers, in a controlled setting, using virtual videos.

I also wonder, given the wide variety of how old/young people look, that having people who are legally adult (over 18), but look anatomically much younger, as prospective partners.

It was certainly eye-opening for me to read in another thread that research shows that pedophilic attraction is hard-wired like being gay. I always believed that pedophiles were mentally/psychologically deficient: unable to maintain a relationship with adults, wanting the power of an unequal relationship.
But since I’m for gay rights, and since we know today that being gay can’t be cured, we should research on safe ways for pedophiles to have sex, instead of abstinence-only.

[constanze]

@Cesario

Do you exclusively adult attracted individuals really find not raping people to be such a difficult task that you need professional help to keep yourselves in check? If no, why do you assume that pedophiles are different?

Um, because adult attracted people have a reasonable hope of finding a mate and building a relationship, while pedophiles can almost never hope that?

I certainly find the attitude some people express in regards to gays or guys that because their desires are so strong, they want to rape all women in sight, and it takes almost superhuman control (usually with religion) to keep that in check absurd. But that’s because I know enough guys who don’t do that, and have a normal relationship.

But if I try to imagine that I could never have a normal relationship with somebody I love, because I wouldn’t feel attracted to them … damn, that’s scary to imagine. I’ve read some stories of gays, how they tried for years to suppress their feelings and desire because of the strong societal taboo against and - and they usually fail and come out. But they can today expect to live in liberal places and find a mate. What can pedophiles expect?

[Marley23]

@constanze

Maybe we could set up projects with social workers, in a controlled setting, using virtual videos.

Just in theory, who’s going to volunteer for that job?

I also wonder, given the wide variety of how old/young people look, that having people who are legally adult (over 18), but look anatomically much younger, as prospective partners.

I’m not sure about this either, and for those who are attracted to people well under 18, it’s never going to work.

There are problems in the way society deals with pedophiles, for sure. I’m not convinced there’s a solution out there that satisfies everyone, although we’d all be better off if fewer parents believed there were pedophiles along every bus route.

[gaffa]

@constanze

There was a thread some time ago about whether completly digital videos of child porn should be forbidden, or only real child porn (thus documents of real abuse). One problem was how to differentiate between the two.

Movies filled with completely realistic scenes of equally anti-social behavior - murder, rape, torture - are some of the most financially successful. As long as no actual humans are involved, we accept it.

I also wonder, given the wide variety of how old/young people look, that having people who are legally adult (over 18), but look anatomically much younger, as prospective partners.

The “Barely Legal” porn genre is one of the most popular. Small-breasted, thin women 18 and older are dressed in clothes of pre-teens with their hair in pigtails, licking lollipops and claiming to be 12 is available in most any neighborhood video store. Squicks me right out, but then I’m not the person renting it.

It was certainly eye-opening for me to read in another thread that research shows that pedophilic attraction is hard-wired like being gay. I always believed that pedophiles were mentally/psychologically deficient: unable to maintain a relationship with adults, wanting the power of an unequal relationship.

I don’t believe it’s an actual sexual orientation, so much as an arrested stage of development on the road to their actual sexual orientation. When I was 12, I was attracted to 12 year old girls, and when I was 20, I was attracted to other 20 year olds.

But since I’m for gay rights, and since we know today that being gay can’t be cured, we should research on safe ways for pedophiles to have sex, instead of abstinence-only.

I’m pretty sure robotics will solve this problem, although the maker of Real Dolls has refused to make an under-age one.

[Marley23]

@gaffa

Movies filled with completely realistic scenes of equally anti-social behavior - murder, rape, torture - are some of the most financially successful. As long as no actual humans are involved, we accept it.

constanze is talking about the difficulty involved in finding out if actual human children are involved or not.

[gaffa]

@Marley23

constanze is talking about the difficulty involved in finding out if actual human children are involved or not.

Yes, but we don’t bother to verify that nobody is actually murdered while filming Texas Chainsaw Massacre. The real difficulty with making animated, virtual child porn is the cost of the work compared to the expected return - though I have no doubt it will first appear as anime. From what I understand there is lots of magna that features visually underage characters.

[Marley23]

@gaffa

Yes, but we don’t bother to verify that nobody is actually murdered while filming Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Because it would be trivially simple to find out if anyone had. It’s not so easy with child pornography, where the victim may be far too young to speak or may be abused by a parent, relative, or acquaintance of one of the above.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@gaffa

I don’t believe it’s an actual sexual orientation, so much as an arrested stage of development on the road to their actual sexual orientation. When I was 12, I was attracted to 12 year old girls, and when I was 20, I was attracted to other 20 year olds.

Well, then you disagree with the vast majority of psychologists and psychiatrists on this issue.

When you were 12 and attracted to 12 year old girls, I bet they all were pubertal, and had secondary sexual characteristics. I’d wager you were not sexually attracted to pre-pubertal girls at any age.

That’s where pedophiles are different; they are attracted to sexually immature children. To be attracted to sexually mature or maturing young people is to have hebephilia, and these are the folks who by and large consume the porn produced using young-looking 18 year olds.