pen and paper RPG discussion

Cafe Society
61

I’m very impressed with the 3rd Ed. rules. I could never get into earlier versions of D&D because the game had the feel that a character was only as good as his equipment. 3rd Ed.'s system of skills, feats, etc. makes it a lot of fun to breathe life into a character.

Rifts is a great setting but a clumsy system. I really hope that a d20 conversion is made soon (hopefully with damage reduction rules instead of megadamage). In fact, most of Palladium’s games have great settings; too bad the actual system isn’t better…

62

My first D&D campaign was not as a player but as a DM, which was interesting because I only had the Player’s Handbook, and no one else had anything. It was fun making up monsters and magic items and weirdness, and the players had a good time too, but we all did a bunch of stupid crap from time to time. One time the supposedly good-aligned party was staying at an inn, when one of the clerics and the wizard got curious about what was in the innkeeper’s strongbox. They tried to sneak off with it, and when they got caught, the wizard cast a fireball spell at the inn and it caught. The local peasant militia tried to capture the party, but they managed to escape down the road. I informed the cleric that her god was quite displeased, and for atonement she was stripped of all powers for a month and made to do service for the needy. As the campaign went on, I made the error of making the fighter the central focus, giving him a Sword of Destiny to use against an evil wizard. This sort of thing might make an ok book, but in my game it had the result of the other characters infighting a lot out of jealousy and boredom. Then one of the guys started running a Rifts game, so we alternated between mine and his for a while. We thought it might be interesting if a juicer stumbled through a portal into my world. I said that the juicer’s suit would work normally, as a magic item, but that any high tech weapons got lost in the portal. It was still a disaster. Looking back, I figure that the juicer suit would be equivalent to a continual haste spell, except at maybe 6 or 8 times normal instead of 2, plus the ability to cast several time stop spells per day. It was amusing for a while, until the juicer decided that he didn’t need to follow any laws. The party was negotiating to buy a large ship from a duke. When he refused the final offer, the juicer decided to steal the ship, so he trounced all the 5th level guardsmen, barehanded, and threw the crew overboard. After that, the player and I agreed that the juicer was a Bad Idea, so he stumbled through another portal and got killed by some Rifts creature.

63

Well, for starters, their charisma can’t be much above 3, I’d think. Let’s face it, a mutant is basically a whole heap of ugly. Strong ugly. I think that Agility would be very low, too. Plus, many NPCs and societies won’t want to have ANYTHING to do with mutants…in some areas, mutants will be shot on sight. According to Marcus in Fallout 2, a lot of “undesirables” got dipped…so basic stats would be far lower than normal humans, except for the Strength and possibly Endurance.

I’d say that mutants have to pick a certain number of undesirable traits. Or perhaps roll the dice for a number of undesirable traits. Low charisma is a given. Low agility could be one of traits to be rolled for. Have the player make up the stats and tags FIRST, then he rolls the dice (gets Dipped) and sees what happens. THAT will cut down on your mutant PCs.

I think that mutant Strength should not top out at 10. I think that mutants could be as strong as 16 or so.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m very fond of Marcus, especially when he explains his remarks in the Cat’s Paw (and I noticed that his spoken remarks don’t match the text exactly), but I don’t think that mutants should be the main PC race.

64

I agree that Mutants should have low charisma and will have a tough time in most towns. However, a good rule of thumb is not to balance mechanical advantages with role-playing disadvantages. Otherwise players will simply try to build workarounds.

What I’m thinking of doing, using d20 rules, is giving Mutants an ECL of 3. That means a level 1 mutant is the equivalent of a level 3 character. Mutants will get +2 STR, +2 CON and -2 CHR and -2 DEX. They can’t wear armor, and can’t use handguns. Stimpacks heal them only half as well as humans. They do, however, get a +1 to hit bonus with large ranged weapons (rocket launchers, flamethrowers).

I’m hoping this balances things out. I’m trying to make them fair and balanced, but I have to admit I don’t really want players playing them. I don’t want to be in the situation wher eI’m running a Star Trek game and everyone shows up to the table wanting to be Klingons cause they’re cool.

65

I would maybe make it +4 Str and add -2 Int, since most of the mutants are pretty stupid.

66

Except for Teenagers from Outer Space. And unlike most “humor” games I’ve found, this one is more fun to play than it is to read the rules. (Tales from the Bar, I am looking in your direction. And I have an autofire boy/girl gun . . .)

Fusion did it first. :slight_smile:
I tend to rate RPGs in how many house rules I need to like the system. D&D 3 : 40-odd pages. Cyberpunk: 12 pages (mostly fixing the horribly broken martial arts system, and fixing three very basic and obvious problems in the core damage/armor/stat systems) Fusion: 15 pages. (Estimated) Hero: 3/4ths of a page.

D&D 3 is far from perfect, (Who designed the weapons? A flail with a striking ball at BOTH ENDS?!?!? Who designed the Druid and Monk?) but it’s not bad. (Unless you start going into the horribly overpowered supplements. Which seem to be almost all of the supplements, actually) I’d put it more or less at average, about on the level of GURPS, somewhat above the Runequest/Cthulu family.

And I actually like what they’ve done with stats a LOT. Not because they’re all the same, but because they spread the bonuses around, things are both more realistic and discourage min-maxing. In second edition, anything between 8 and 15 was generally exactly the same, with HUGE bonuses, far more than you could get by any other means, near the extremes. Which seems as good a means of encouraging min/maxing as I can think of. (Well, except for the ‘buy at cost, buy up at much much higher cost’ thing that White Wolf and GURPS use) Now you can be “above/below average” and have the system actually reflect it.

And Rouges are SO much better designed than the laughably underpowered Thieves, that would be worth the trouble for changing over all by itself.

Speaking of GURPS, I finally played it recently, and was underwhelmed. It’s not bad, certainly well above average for the time it came out, but its not nearly as generic as I’d been led to believe, and it’s one of the least balanced systems I’ve ever seen, despite the fact every third page bragged about how balanced it was. And most of the good stuff was inspired by Hero anyway. :slight_smile:

I’ve figured out why “real roleplayers” like it so much, though. Kick up your dex and int, (What did they call their “mental” stat?) and you can buy a zillion esoteric skills at 14- for half a point each. :slight_smile:

Hero’s reputation for being over-complex is exaggerated. (Character creation is very complex. Which is a GOOD thing) It has a high learning curve, but once you get the basics down, it’s VERY straightforward. Everything works in basically one of three ways . . . While you can learn the basics of AD&D in half an hour, your going to be looking things up every five minutes for at least five sessions, and going to have at least 4 cases of “Well, if I’d known how that worked/that that existed, I’d have taken it.”

It’s battles arn’t much longer than average either, unless the GM makes the horrible, horrible mistake of including more than 12 or so combatants. And honestly, they’re so much more satisfying than any other system I’ve found, its a small price to pay. D&D was made for mass battles, and as a result, one-on-one fights are dull. Hero is the other extreme, and in practice, the battles don’t seem to take significantly longer than D&D 3, GURPS, or White Wolf. With, generally, MUCH less arguing about how the system works.

God, I HATE White Wolf. The gameworlds aren’t bad, if you like that sort of thing (though they’re not great) but the system rivals Paladium for the Worst System Ever award. And no, the fact that “The storyteller is supposed to ignore the rules when things don’t work out” is NOT a valid excuse.

You want to see a battle go on forever? Sit in on a Rolemaster game sometime. :slight_smile:

I’ve heard good things about the mechanics for the furry game Albedo. Anyone know about that? A furryverse doesn’t interest me much, but good mechanics can be applied to anything.
Fallout D20
Well, though you could do it better and easier in Hero, (Actually, Interlock would probably work very well, too, considering how touchy the one-hit-kill criticals made FO combat) but if you must … :slight_smile:

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However, a good rule of thumb is not to balance mechanical advantages with role-playing disadvantages. Otherwise players will simply try to build workarounds.

[/quote]

As a Hero GM, I can’t disagree more. They’ll try to build workarounds anyway, and properly done psychlims encourage more interesting characters. Though characters who EXCLUSIVELY use psychlims/social disads are usually ones to look out for.

But charisma isn’t supposed to represent “likablity” anymore, it’s supposed to represent willpower and force of personality. Which makes wisdom, theoretically, less of a kludge. Not that you’d know it or that that lessens the “band of wandering assholes*” syndrome much, but it might if the game followed up on it.

+4 str is a lot, though, you might want to drop it to +2, (That’s a size class bonus, right? And mutant’s arn’t big enough to be Large) Though actually, just making them Large, and giving them the bonuses and penalties for that might work out. Maybe with a dex penalty, no small weapons and limited armor (in a real RPG, it’s not unreasonable for a player to try and get some giant armor made, after all, at least a leather jacket . . .) and human social penalties on top of that. I wouldn’t go for an Int or Wisdom penalty, though. Mutants weren’t changed mentally by dipping, from what the game seemed to imply.

If you actually enforce them, social penalties are NOT trivial. Just make sure the player knows that when the group finds a village, he might as well go watch TV until the rest of the players leave. Depending on your game style, that could be 3/4ths or more of the game.

And depending on how romantic (in the realistic vs. romantic sense) you’re making the campaign, the fact that he’s going to eat 5 times as much as everyone else could be a REAL problem. (And remember that Super Mutants are immune to disease. :))

Also, a human can get 50% cover from a curb and 90% from a car engine. A mutant is going to learn the joys of being the only guy out in the open very soon . . . and very painfully. (I wouldn’t give them a bonus to hit with large weapons, either)
Your average AD&D party, full of Cha in the 6 to 8 range.

–
“Yeah, when they’re not off writing lines of code, they’re off doing this crap . . .”

67

Heh, a human could even take cover behind a mutant!

Ura-Maru, could you elaborate on why you think WW is so horrible? I certainly don’t think it’s as bad as Palladium.

68

I started way back in the 80s with Dungeons and Dragons, the old red boxed basic set. I probably only played that game a grand total of four or five times before changing over to 1st edition AD&D since that was the game that the only DM in my class was running.

I upgraded to 2nd Edition more or less as soon as it came out, which was after I had moved and started again playing Old D&D with a new group. We have stuck to 2nd Edition ever since, and don’t really plan on converting to 3rd anytime real soon. It isn’t really that we’re happy with 2nd edition; our house rules binder is over 150 pages and it’s almost to the point that we’re playing a completely different game. One that we are very happy with.

That and the fact that 3rd edition makes me want to weep openly. C R A . . . um . . CRUD.

In junior high I loved Palladiums Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles game. My best friend at the time and I would run solo adventures for each other every week in my backyard. I loved all the different goofy mutant animals you could create. Around the same time we tried GAMMA WORLD but I guess it just wasn’t ‘kewl’ enough for us. We also tried out Heroes Unlimited but it never caught on, probably due to lack of Platypi. I bought the RIFTS book when it was released and almost immediately regretted it.

I played Top Secret, S.I. during this period and while I loved the idea of a spy game this wasn’t at all what I wanted. I’m looking forward to AEG’s SPYCRAFT, using the d20 rules which should be out more or less any day now.

In high school a couple friend and I ran a lengthy game using the Marvel Superheroes RPG, which is actually really good for a very early rules light system. It doesn’t work so well for superheroes, but that’s another point. Today for supers, we primarily use Champions 4th edition although we are currently playtesting Silver Age Sentinels by Guardians of Order. The jury’s still out on that one.

I played in a Vampire chronicle back during the 1st edition days and enjoyed myself. I ran my own chronicle set in Miami which was well received by all concerned. I’ve played all of one adventure in Werewolf. I own the 1st Edition of Mage: The Ascenscion and will probably never play it. I also own Street Fighter: The RPG, which is in my opinion White Wolf’s greatest game of all time. :smiley:

I’ve played GURPS. I wasn’t impressed. Just not my style of gaming. Same goes for Rolemaster.

I’ve played multiple one shots in Chaosiums Call of Chthulhu. Never run a game myself, nor do I have any inclination to do so.

Does Battletech count as an RPG? What if you design your own mechs? But. . but robots. C’mon.

Our current favorite game in the universe is Big Eyes, Small Mouth 2nd edition, by Guardians of Order. A rules light anime-themed game that is adaptable to just about anything. Mmmmm, Love.

Games I own and could play, but either have never played or have no interest in playing: ARIA, Amber Diceless, Little Fears, The Babylon Project, DC Heroes, Mechwarrior, TOON, Marvel SAGA and probably a few more that I’m forgetting.

69

But as you know the computer requires that all weapons be properly and safely handled. Therefore conducting a weapon check with someone in the path of the shot would be considered treason…especially since you knew he was a commie traitor and didn’t do anything about it before, therefore you must have been conspiring with him! KILL THE TRAITOR!!!

70

The Computer has rewarded you for your superior reasoning and quick reflexes. You are now Security Clearance Yellow. The Computer is your friend.

But, tell me… you reasoned that out so well. In fact, you figured it out before the Computer did. Tell me, Citizen… How did you figure it out before the Computer? You must have access to information the Computer lacks. The Computer knows everything. Withholding information from the Computer is Treason.
KILL THE TRAITOR!!!
Thank you. The Computer is your friend…

71

Based on what I’ve heard about Paranoia here and from my offline friends, I have to conclude that it’s not a Role Playing Game but a Joke Playing Game.

72

I started out way back in 1978 with the 2nd edition boxed set of D&D, and moved up to AD&D 1st edition around 1980 or so. I never got into the 2nd or 3rd editions, as I found other games I enjoyed much more. I tend to like the SF and horror games rather than the fantasy games, however my all time favorite was the original Empire of the Petal Throne. For SF, I enjoy Traveller and Twilight: 2000 the most. and I love Call of Cthullu, especially the modern version. I’d really like to find a good cyberpunk game but the 3 I’ve come across (Shadowrun, GURPs, and Cyberpunk 2020) all have (IMHO) terrible systems. Any recommendations?

73

D’oh! I failed my “Preview before posting” check! Why did I put all my points into ‘Knowledge: H-Manga’?!

The band of wandering assholes thing describes the party with a 7 average Cha. Don’t know how that gotten broken up.
Why I hate white wolf? A lot of reasons.

The main problem is, as previously mentioned, the three different variables used to determine everything make it difficult for GMs to determine what’s likely to happen, and make the results VERY random, and not in a good way. The purpose of an RPG system is to simulate either reality or (far more often) fiction, but WW’s results didn’t seem to model anything but wild randomness, skewed strongly towards players and NPCs failing almost everything unless it was very easy, punctuated with unlikely, spectacular successes, (depending on which direction the storyteller accidentally set the difficulty at) with little in between. I had the same problem with Shadowrun.

As a minor related complaint, it takes longer than it should to figure out the results for each roll than most games, as well. As a Champs fan, I’m used to dealing with huge handfuls of damage dice, but the same action in WW usually required three or four huge handfuls of dice.

Additionally, WW does managed to include just about everything that irritates me about any other system. Skills/Stats are bought at cost to start out, but insanely expensive to improve once the game starts, which encourages (practically demands, in fact) min/maxing right from the start. It’s an “arbitrary” system, (meaning effects of assorted skills and powers are simply dictated by the rules, not ‘built’) which I don’t love but can deal with, but the abilities you gain with them either aren’t balanced or aren’t interesting, and are usually poorly explained. They actually managed to come up with an ‘alignment’ system worse than AD&Ds. It’s perks and flaws mostly consist of things that should be modeled by the rest of the system.

The only thing it DOESN’T do (that irritates me, that is) is have single stats that model several unrelated personality/physical components. I actually more or less approve of WWs stats, though the social ones aren’t defined as well as they could be. The Willpower thing is actually a pretty good idea, as well.

And finally, the books layout and explanations of how systems worked seemed VERY vague and confusing. In four different WW campaigns in two different states, there were major differences in how basic parts of the system was implemented. (How to soak damage, for instance)

I also had serious problems with the gameworld, who’s inability to keep a straight face and pretentiousness combined to give an atmosphere more like Goth Talk than The Crow, but that’s not (quite) germane. And, generally speaking, I don’t like most gameworlds mint-in-box, anyway.

Now just ask me why I hate The Matrix and the Blair Witch project . . . J
Good Cyberpunk Games:

Well, Hero could be used to make a great CP setting, but you’d have to make your own almost from scratch, Cyber Hero was the worst supplement they ever came out with. By a huge margin. If I ever finish the setting for my long-delayed CP hero campaign, I’ll shoot it your way, though.

Actually, what didn’t you like about Cyberpunk 2020, Osakadave? If your complaints are similar to mine, I could see if I could dig up the house rules I used for that . . . Though it sounds like you enjoy the more complex systems more.

You might want to check out the Bubblegum Crisis RPG, actually. That used Fusion, which wasn’t a bad system, (though maybe not for you if you didn’t like Interlock) and the AD Police half of the Before and After book contains a fair start for a gameworld, though it’s a bit short on campain-building stuff. (The EX supplement is supposed to help this, though)

–
“Vermont was the center of the dystopia?”

74

Oh, it’s a role-playing game alright. It’s just that the role is short-lived, characters almost never showing up in a second game.

Your job is to play the role of an ambitious, terrified, clueless, arrogant, confused agent in a Kafka-esque world run by a lunatic computer. Jokes are expected, but you gotta get in character for it to be any fun.

Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy!

75

… how come no one in this thread has yet mentioned every Loonie’s all-time favorite, The Spawn of Fashan?