Pence - just in case you forgot what a hypocritical cry-baby he is

[k9bfriender]

@Dacien

I just want to offer the perspective that one can be an orthodox Christian for religious reasons, yet harbor no hate towards anyone. Indeed, the latter would be a hallmark trait of what one could consider a good Christian.

Absolutely agree. I’ve met many, many Christians of many denominations who harbored no hate. This was not due to their religion, but due to the way that those people are. I would even venture to say that the vast, vast majority of people who call themselves christian have little or no hate towards anyone.

However, there are people who do harbor hate. And those people find refuge in using religion as an excuse. “I don’t hate [group of people that is being discriminated against], it’s just that god hates them, and he will send me to hell if I treat them with respect or dignity.”

The good christians do get a bad image from this. People are doing odorous things in the name of your god, even if it is a minority. Now, a good christian could call out these people, and say that that is not what they believe, but, it is, in many cases, exactly what they believe, so they can’t. They don’t hate people for being gay, but they consider being gay to be enough or an immorality that they also will not call out the people who do. They provide cover for haters, so that, if someone criticizes someone for being hateful or discriminatory, they step back and try to claim that we are talking about everyone who shares their faith, not just those who share the hate.

So long as christianity provides a fig leaf for cover for bigots and haters, it will be judged along with those it protects. The catholic church, for instance, isn’t thought poorly of because it is thought that all clergy are child molestors, or even most are, or even a significant percentage. It doesn’t matter how small the percentage is, however, if they protect them. It is the giving of cover to “evil” members, not the existence of “evil” members in a group taht condemns it.

If you are a christian and you don’t want to be thought of the same as the the people who call themselves christian as they make the news with their hate, then call them out. Publicly state that these are not the teachings of Christ, that these are not the teachings that you follow. Make it known that you follow the guidance of “love your neighbor”, and as such, do not condone treating people differently based on who they are, that you are a christian that welcomes an order for a SSM cake, that you are a school that welcomes LGTBQ students and staff.

To do otherwise is to continue to provide cover for people who use your religion for the purpose of justifying their hate.

[monstro]

“Christians are persecuted, vilified, and discriminated against for their beliefs. Why do people hate us so? Sure, we persecute, vilify, and discriminate against others. But that’s different. So don’t hate us for hating you, haters!”

-The Pence family, probably.

[Steve_MB]

@Gorsnak

Moreover, if Pence is going to be all pious about how it’s loving to forbid unrepentant LGBTs or their children from attending his wife’s school, then how the hell can he justify supporting an unrepentant serial adulterer, compulsive liar, and well-known crook (wrt Trump’s established record of stiffing contractors)? It’s all well and good to assert that there’s some theoretical principled position of “orthodox Christianity” that resembles American evangelical views (though I’m not certain that it’s really very orthodox at all) and that rejects the LGBT community but not out of hate - love the sinner but hate the sin and all that - but you cannot at the same time support the leadership of the least moral man to hold the office of POTUS in the history of the country. Pence is indeed a hypocritical cry-baby.

This brings us to the fundamental flaw in Pence’s “religious” justification. The moment he starts applying it selectively (as he clearly does here), he loses any claim that he is simply following God’s will – he is, in fact, following his will by applying certain rules and not others, and the fact that cherry-picked bits of a religious document happen to coincide with his preferences becomes mere irrelevant coincidence.

[ctnguy]

@Knowed_Out

OK, I get that a Christian school that has a “no gays” hiring policy is going to be a target of anti-discrimination advocates, but do any of the protesters *want *their kids going to that school?

If a public company had such a policy, I could understand the outrage, but this is an institution founded for a “select” clientele, Christians. As such, they’re going to teach things that won’t resonate with non-Christians and non-heteros. Plus, even if they were required to change their admissions policy, the students and administrators aren’t going to change their nature just because they’re not allowed to discriminate. Just let separation of church and state apply here and stop allowing FOX to turn the Pences into martyrs.

I don’t imagine any of the protesters would send their kids to such a school. But there are LGBT children of evangelical families who may be sent to a school like this one and suffer from their attitudes. Which is why I think that, even if you take a “it’s your choice to do business with them” kind of attitude to discrimination by private institutions generally, schools are different because the choice is usually made by parents while the consequences are felt by the children.

[OttoDaFe]

@Steve_MB

@Gorsnak

Moreover, if Pence is going to be all pious about how it’s loving to forbid unrepentant LGBTs or their children from attending his wife’s school, then how the hell can he justify supporting an unrepentant serial adulterer, compulsive liar, and well-known crook (wrt Trump’s established record of stiffing contractors)? It’s all well and good to assert that there’s some theoretical principled position of “orthodox Christianity” that resembles American evangelical views (though I’m not certain that it’s really very orthodox at all) and that rejects the LGBT community but not out of hate - love the sinner but hate the sin and all that - but you cannot at the same time support the leadership of the least moral man to hold the office of POTUS in the history of the country. Pence is indeed a hypocritical cry-baby.

This brings us to the fundamental flaw in Pence’s “religious” justification. The moment he starts applying it selectively (as he clearly does here), he loses any claim that he is simply following God’s will – he is, in fact, following his will by applying certain rules and not others, and the fact that cherry-picked bits of a religious document happen to coincide with his preferences becomes mere irrelevant coincidence.

There’s also the Trump as King Cyrus scenario, which (as ThemlaLou noted) has been making the rounds in certain “Christian” circles. If one accepts this scenario, the fact that Trump is “an unrepentant serial adulterer, compulsive liar, and well-known crook” is irrelevant — one must support him because he’s been chosen by the Lord to bring about the Lord’s kingdom.

[KarlGauss]

Part of my rage at Pence is, I suppose, directed at those Christians who accept the King Cyrus trope and have thereby used it to justify sins; sins committed by others.

Non-Cyrus-believing-Christians have a particular responsibility - an obligation - to call out Trump and his enablers.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Dacien

David French over at National Review has an absolutely excellent piece on the subject from a orthodox Christian point of view.

Just because you disagree with Christians doesn’t mean they harbor animus against you.

Honestly, it’s a vapid and senseless take that takes the criticism of Karen Pence and tries its very hardest to just completely ignore the meat of it. It never once actually mentions what Pence’s school actually advocates - because that might actually make it clear that we’re not just talking about fluff. This is a school which discriminates against LGBT students and faculty. This discrimination has real consequences for LGBT kids, who have to remain closeted, and who are left in a position where to even talk about their sexuality could get them kicked out of school. Oh, and did I mention that one of the best correlations for suicide in LGBT youth has to do with acceptance from those around them? Yeah, that’s a thing.

And then you get this bloviating blowhard acting like it’s totally unreasonable to treat that as hatred.

Fuck him. You don’t get to paper over your abuse of people by saying, “No, it’s out of love, see?” Nobody fucking cares if you’re being abusive and discriminatory out of some horribly misguided “love” or because your ideology is intentionally cruel and evil towards others. In the long run, it does not and never has made any difference. It didn’t make a difference for the heretics burned at the stake or the children Andrea Yates killed, for that matter. Even if every single person at that school held no hatred in their hearts for gay people (which I seriously doubt), their policies remain grossly harmful and discriminatory. Why do they get a pass on that?

[MortSahlFan]

Pence is worse than Trump, because I think he actually believes the shit he says. Trump has flip-flopped so many times over the years I have no idea what he believes. As long as it makes him look good. I always had this hope the Democrats would flatter him by signing Infrastructure bills, since Trump was mentioning this every other week. Good thing they did some criminal justice reform.

It bothers me that self-described Democrats or liberals are PRO-war? If Trump really follows through bringing all the troops home, I’ll support him in my head in 2020, since I have a feeling the nominee will be an inch to the left of the GOP.

[enipla]

@Dacien

David French over at National Review has an absolutely excellent piece on the subject from a orthodox Christian point of view.

Just because you disagree with Christians doesn’t mean they harbor animus against you.

Had to stop reading when he mentioned morality.

Heads up. I don’t disagree with the fundamentals of Christianity, not at all. As an atheist, I follow the basic tenants of Christianity. I don’t need a church to do this. My life has shown me that I, an atheist, is a better ‘Christian’ than most Christians are. They seem to think that they have an excuse to be assholes 'cause they go to church on Sunday.

[Lord_Feldon]

@Dacien

In order for something to be hateful, I feel like it has to come from a place of hate.

I actually kind of agree. What matters is the actions of people and the state, not the feelings in people’s hearts. Framing discriminatory ideologies as “hatred” can be distracting, because it focuses on how to change hearts and minds rather than on how to enact and enforce more just policies. The former isn’t unimportant but it’s certainly not as important as latter.

You see some of this whenever Christians demand “religious freedom” exemptions so they can operate segregated businesses. People go “oh, but why would you want to shop somewhere where the shopkeeper HATES you, you should go somewhere else” as if the main problem is the state of their soul rather than the actions of their business.

[Derleth]

@Lord_Feldon

You see some of this whenever Christians demand “religious freedom” exemptions so they can operate segregated businesses. People go “oh, but why would you want to shop somewhere where the shopkeeper HATES you, you should go somewhere else” as if the main problem is the state of their soul rather than the actions of their business.

This is the difference between public policy, which is about breaking game-theoretic failure modes, and public morality, which is about making a society which is pleasant to live in. The former feeds into the latter, because you can hardly improve public morality when everyone’s locked into segregated lunch counters and denying people contraceptives, but they’re separate issues and must be solved different ways by different people.

And the conservatives know this. They know that public policy shapes public morality. That’s why they go so hard against any attempt to make public policy more in line with existing anti-discrimination trends.

[HelenGawn]

@Dacien

I’d argue that a true orthodox Christian adheres to the “all have sinned” passages and does not see themselves as “better” than anyone else. But I suppose this is all treading into proselytization, which really isn’t my intent. I just want to offer the perspective that one can be an orthodox Christian for religious reasons, yet harbor no hate towards anyone. Indeed, the latter would be a hallmark trait of what one could consider a good Christian.

It’s hard to argue that one doesn’t see oneself as better when you exclude the “other.” It’s also hard to claim to be a Christian when one doesn’t take a lesson from the people Jesus hung with, in life and in death.

[coffeecat]

So. Karen Pence took a job as an art teacher at Immanuel Christian School, an institution that will expell or fire you for having or supporting gay sex.* This is a matter of national public interest because of coverture. The media interviewed Mike Pence, and he despicably did not throw his wife under the bus. In a surprise move, Pence failed to repudiate what he’s publicly believed for decades. Millions are suddenly shocked and appalled by the status quo. What Marlon Bundo thinks about all this is not known.

Historically, fighting someone else’s religion because it’s evil and abhorrent works about as well as gay conversion therapy. When a few draftees said they couldn’t be soldiers, because it was against their faith, America didn’t say, “Fuck you, coward! You dishonor our troops! USA! USA! USA!” It bent over backwards to accommodate them and let them be C.O.s. We thought freedom of religion mattered, even religions that said something everyone at the time thought was outrageous. The Republic did not fall, and dogs and cats still lived apart. I think we should bend over backwards to accommodate both conservative evangelicals and gays, if at all possible, and not call anyone out as a heretic, even if they’re wrong, wrong, wrong.

*They’ll also fire you for straight sex with anyone but your spouse. It’s not so much the gay, they just don’t like this newfangled 1960s free love. Students and their families are also required to regularly attend a Bible-believing church, and parents are obligated to pray earnestly for the school on a regular basis. They’re hard core.

[Batano]

Presumably, accepting Jesus as your savior is as important, if not more so, than who you have sex with. Could Mrs Pence’'s school not allow Jews?

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@coffeecat

I think we should bend over backwards to accommodate both conservative evangelicals and gays, if at all possible, and not call anyone out as a heretic, even if they’re wrong, wrong, wrong.

I agree about accommodating everyone… to a point. When religion starts to preach hatred and intolerance towards other groups - that’s where I draw the line. I don’t know how much Pence’s particular religion preaches hatred and intolerance towards gay people, but I know many religious groups do this.

I find myself in agreement with Karl Popper:

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

[SteveG1]

@KarlGauss

It seems that Mike Pence does actually speak from time to time. HERE is a piece from the execrable Fox News describing how the Vice President (does he get embarrassed hearing the word ‘Vice’?) responded to recent news stories about how the ‘Christian school’ his wife works at discriminates against various minorities.

Yes, I get it. They can discriminate. It’s their prerogative.

But what Mike can’t do is whine about how “Christian education” is being attacked. Indeed, genuine Christian education is something that would help us all - love of the other, charity, all the selfless values espoused by Christ, are sorely needed.

Christian education is not under attack. Bigotry is.

Fuck you Pence. Right up the ass.

This. People aren’t attacking “christian” anything (though I AM sick and tired of “christian” this and “christian” that all the fucking time).

They are attacking bigoted assholes. If those bigoted assholes try to hide behind “religion”, fuck 'em anyway. Then they’re just cowardly bigoted assholes.

[SteveG1]

@Chronos

What does that have to do with anything? The Holy Bible never says anything against adultery. It’s too busy condemning transsexuality and abortion.

AND adultery. Oh, THEIR bible. Never mind

[Knowed_Out]

Interesting article from a gay alumni of Karen Pence’s school.

I don’t see these people changing their attitude towards gays any time soon. I say quit giving them so much attention and let them fester in their personal swamp.

[Guest-starring_Id]

@Knowed_Out

I say quit giving them so much attention and let them fester in their personal swamp.

I say throw the klieg lights on their grossness - a sort of media pillocking. They won’t be basking in the attention, nor will they be trying to use the attention as some sort of misguided recruitment aid; they will, instead, (and should) be recoiling, as outed monsters, trying to hide behind their fraudulent shield of moral recititude - to no fucking avail.

[KarlGauss]

@Knowed_Out

Interesting article from a gay alumni of Karen Pence’s school.

Great link, thanks.

After reading about Pence’s wife’s school, Covington, Kavanaugh, and even one in my own city, you really have to wonder what’s going on in some ‘religious’ schools.