I would agree with that much more if the professor claimed that Hispanics were converting to much more moderate Protestant denominations like the Episcopal Church (the services are similar to Catholic services but it is completely different in outlook) or very liberal churches like the Unitarian Church which is barely even Christian in some congregations.
However, that isn’t the case here. Pentecostalism is both a fundamentalist and evangelical branch of Christianity. I would rank it even more religious than the vast majority of Roman Catholics. There is no reasonable way to conclude that anyone is becoming less religious than they were before if they voluntarily convert to Pentecostalism unless they are a former member of the ultra-strict Opus Dei sect within the Catholic church.
If that was really what the professor said, I would have to conclude that he or she is ill-informed about what Pentecostalism is or there is some strange logic going on. It would be the same as someone seeing a large number of people converting to Mormonism (that really is happening as well) and concluding that the converts are becoming less religious based on that as well. It makes little sense.
I know that Pentecostalism is growing in Latin America as well. I read a bit on a forum for ex-Pentecostals and many people who converted to Pentecostalism did because they found the vibrancy of the religion appealing—that it was so different from whatever they had seen before that it felt more alive and energetic.
I’m inclined to agree with you that the guy was talking about the unique effects of Pentacostalism turning people away from religion. But I also disagree with what you have written here. I think it is quite reasonable to hypothesize that people who are desperate to recharge their diminishing faith would seek out a super-injection of religiosity (Pentacostalism) versus something perceived as weak and watered-down religion. I could see a lapsed Catholic assuming their disillusionment with church stems from the aloofness and tedium of a typical mass. They might try a Pentacostal church because it seems like it would be a refreshing change. But it doesn’t take long for the crazy Pentacostals to convince them that it doesn’t matter what the church service is like. They simply don’t like church. Then they’re out of the picture forever.
Pentacostals are big into proselytizing and welcoming “backsliders”. There’s a Pentacostal church here in Richmond that airs commercials on black radio stations that does exactly that. You don’t hear the AME or Baptist churches airing commercials like this. So those Pentacostals know how to hook in people who are feeling conflicted spiritually, who are just a few steps away from losing their faith altogether but don’t know it yet.
I agree with monstro. I think it’s a mistake to assume that every Latino that converts to Pentecostalism is becoming more religious, just because the sect as a whole has a very evangelical and devout reputation. How many Latinos are converting, attending for a couple months, and then losing interest? At this point they may not feel comfortable (or interested in) going back to Catholic services and they are left with little religion in their lives. Sure, a bunch may go on to become super-religious Pentecostal tongue-speakers, but just as many will fall by the wayside.
I can only speak to my personal experience of baptizing many Latin Americans into Mormonism (which also has a very proselytizing and devout reputation). Almost all of those people were previously (nominally) Catholic. Some of the people I baptized have gone on to become super-devout Mormons with all their extended family; many, many more have lost all interest in Mormonism. And some are probably speaking in tongues in a Pentecostal church somewhere right now.
Hopefully the professor has some data to back up his point, like the retention rates of Pentecostal converts and polling data. I think it’s a plausible hypothesis.
I can totally see it. If you just aren’t feeling very churchy, it’s really easy to be an inactive Catholic. So people who are actively joining something else are likely to be seekers- perhaps seekers who are having some kind of crisis of faith. When they realize the Catholic Church isn’t answering their questions, they seek out something different- a more personal, intense form of worship.
For some percent, that isn’t going to answer their questions either. But there isn’t really a role for an inactive holidays-and-weddings Pentecostal. So that opens the door to leaving organized religion all together.
My experience is the opposite - people become more theologically liberal before leaving the Church altogether. Or else don’t really change their beliefs at all - they just stop attending church until Christmas or a funeral.
The reason the premise is true is that Pentecostals, IMHO, provide "tangible evidence" of God. Now bear with me, tangible evidence can be easily debated, but if you struggle with your faith, seeing people speaking in tongues, physically being overcome by the Holy Spirit and writhing on the floor or with their arms in the air, might convince you that "a-hah!!, see God is real, you can see the physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit in God’s people." If an individual struggles with their faith to the point that they need observable occurrences of God’s presence, at some point even those examples, will probably not sustain their faith and then they completely exit a formal religion.
Mexican-American communities tend to be centered around the Catholic Church. It’s a gathering place, a cultural tradition, and just an important part of the community, in my experience. For immigrants (and likely people in Mexico, but my experience is with immigrants), the church isn’t just a Sunday thing, it’s kind of part of life. It’s easy to not believe the theology and still go along with the rhythms of church life (go to mass, celebrate feast days, etc). Converting away from it is leaving a part of your community, much more than just changing where you go on Sunday and some theology.
People who do this MAY be less tied to the traditional immigrant community, thus likely to eventually follow the growing pattern of non-religiousness. They are Mexican, but starting to associate more with the broader culture and not just their immigrant community. So broader trends in religious affiliation will apply. Do Pentacostal converts in general end up leaving religion, or is this a Mexican only phenomenon?
Or they don’t find what they are looking for at the Pentacostal church (it’s so different from RCC that it may be a tough adjustment), so they kind of give up on organized religion.
I was raised Lutheran as well and I don’t remember the nonemotionalism being emphasized, just expected. And I mean expected as in when my grandma called out “Amen!” during the sermon, that’s when we knew she was starting to slip.
Maybe it’s because I was raised that way that Pentacostals freak me out. I was at a friend’s house once when she and her family decided to have an informal prayer circle. When they started speaking in tongues, the cats ran out of the room and I wished I could run with them.
People who are mentioning immigrant communities, please read and reconsider. This is not happening only in immigrants, this is happening in the home countries, in Latin America, not in the US. I do not think the “well, they’re becoming more mainstream/abandoning the traditions/becoming more open” to be the case here.
I wonder if it is actually a delayed response. Previously, there were a larger proportion of Catholics in the home country (anywhere in Latin America), so that the immigrants who went to the US were primarily Catholic. As other variants of Christianity flourished in the home countries, so did eventually the number of immigrants from that part who are not Catholic. And that is why now they’re noticing this trend here, in the US.
Because Catholicism, even if it is still the most common religion in many countries, it is far from being the definitive majority, and other groups have become more and more common.
I know for me, having grown up Catholic, when I see really big, vibrant religious displays it makes me feel uncomfortable. I’m to repressed for that! It’s too tiring!
Fixed it. And I’d have thought the last step before no religion was Unitarianism. That’s not a swipe at the U-Us, by the way- it’s just that if an atheist can be relatively comfortable with their doctrine, it stands to reason that it’s kinda close to no religion altogether. I think Shodan is saying the same thing. The phenomenon with Pentecostalism would be the opposite: the professor is saying that it’s a very demanding and energetic faith, and that when people lose that kind of belief, they give up on religion instead of finding another denomination. I have no idea if that’s true.
Don’t pentecostal churches emphasize thinking for yourself? Maybe not “critical thinking” as we on the Dope would describe it, but not leaning on 2000 years of ritual, canon and doctrine (and a priest who knows God better than you) either. So a pentecostal church would be, compared to Catholicism, close to no church at all. It’s really just a club where people meet once a week to talk about their personal God hobby and how great it is.
And if you consider that religion throughout most of history has been about adhering to rules, and performing rituals, and having someone smarter than you, or “closer to God”, tell you what to believe, you can see why having your own personal beliefs and relationship with God is very subversive from the point of view of established churches.
Haven’t been to church in decades, and I’m not sure I’ve ever been to a pentecostal church, so maybe I’m talking out of my ass here. But that’s my hunch.
I’m suddenly struck with a weird analogy, of Pentecostalism, or really any very energetic and active faith, being a bit like marriage counseling. There are very healthy marriages that turn to counseling early and often. There are also unhealthy marriages where people go from apathy to the energy and mindfulness of counseling in an attempt to save the marriage. In those latter cases, it might or might not work, but if it doesn’t, it wasn’t the counseling that was to blame.
The thing is, when people start losing faith it’s not always in the form of “Wait a minute, I don’t believe in this. I’m an Atheist! Okay, cool, time to stop being religious.”
Often it’s in the form of “Something about this doesn’t feel right anymore.”
The follow up to that could be anything from “Maybe the devil is trying to destroy my faith” to “Maybe I’m doing it wrong” to “Maybe I just need more rules” to “Those guys over there look like they are having more fun”. If you live in a highly religious community and have always been religious, you probably aren’t gojng to make intuitive sense of your changing beliefs. I think in a lot of cases, people spend some time overcorrecting. And when they go to that extreme, they end up burning out and turning off completely
Nobody is saying all Atheists go through a Pentecostal stage. It’s just one of many paths that happen.
This is pretty much what happened to me. I lost my faith very, very gradually. I wasn’t happy about it. I really, really wanted to believe. I liked being Catholic. I liked going to Mass. It gave me a great sense of peace and of belonging.
I prayed about it. Nuthin’. I went to Confession and if I’d had a more aware confessor, he might have been able to help a bit but he wasn’t able to offer me any guidance at all.
So I just stopped going and I stopped believing. Not in that order. Oh, and I still miss Mass.
He is just like any professor trying to sound like he knows what he’s talking about, when he knows that he doesn’t. For his statement to have any meaning, he would have to show some society in which that was true. Or, basically, any evidence that Pentecostalism is the last stage…
He’s got nothin.
