Your “we can say what we want, but that doesn’t make it true or significant” sounds close enough to “liar” for government work. Or at least “I know better than you what you really think”.
Anyway, it seems to me like we’re just having the conversation that I referred to in my post upthread. So I’m excusing myself from it now.
WTF.
You might find this interesting:
27 Photos that Demonstrate the Power of Make-Up
I’m a woman who doesn’t wear make-up (besides a little lipstick now and then :)). But after reading that article, I might have to rethink my ways! Ain’t no way you can convince me #8 or #27 (the very last one) didn’t get a big ole boost with some cosmetics.
No, it means that it is not necessarily true or significant. “Not necessarily true” means that I can’t take it on faith that you always know whether every woman you see is wearing makeup and how that might be affecting your reaction and whether you dutifully record every such action or j stead are just playing confirmation bias.
More importantly, it means that whatever you think your individual personal opinion is is not significant, that is, doesn’t matter when the experience of so many women is that wearing makeup makes such a huge difference.
I like all the “befores” better! The afters just look so fake.
Makeup commercials: This makeup will make you look like you’re not wearing anything at all!
gigi, yelling at the TV: You know what really makes you look like you’re not wearing any makeup?! NOT WEARING ANY MAKEUP!
Quit being disingenuous. The post you started arguing with was the one where he voiced his own preferences. Your response from the beginning was about proving his preference wrong. And the only way a preference can be wrong is if you are lying.
In your previous post, you even flat out said he’s not allowed to state his opinion:
Of course it’s not a statement of fact. Value judgements like “beautiful” inherently cannot be statements of fact. So what you are arguing is that he’s not allowed to find women without makeup to be as beautiful as women with makeup.
I don’t know why people try to pretend that people are all morons and won’t take context into account. Your message from the start has been to argue his opinion is wrong. Using words that imply your intended meaning but can be taken another way when called on it doesn’t work when we can see your intent from the beginning.
Weird that you picked both the one who gains the most with makeup and the one that loses the most. I wouldn’t say that number 8 became beautiful, but she looks a lot better. And, unlike the rest of the pics, it doesn’t appear to be due to bad lighting, angles, or hair. Sure, her hair and angle is slightly different, but it does appear the makeup is doing most of the lifting.
But you couldn’t be more wrong with #27b. I’m not saying she’s ugly with the makeup, but she’s completely lost what makes her cute. They seem to have applied a one-size-fits-all style to her, without paying attention to what she already naturally had. Her lovely skin looks plastic. She no longer has any jaw definition, making her look like she has a fat face. They’ve apparently told her not to smile, when her smile was incredibly cute and her best feature. (It’s also why her nose looks bigger–but there’s nothing wrong with that if you’re cute enough.) The after picture makes her look like someone who isn’t even pretty and the makeup is the only thing that makes her aesthetically tolerable.
Really, that list isn’t all that good. Number 8 is probably the only one that deserves to be on the list. Numbers 1 and 4 have the heavy lifting done by her hair fixed by her hair. Number 2 makes her look worse. Number 7 looks different but she’s still gorgeous before. Numbers 16 and 22 (and 25 to a lesser extent) have an unflattering angle and lighting. Number 17 looks like an alien when she is finished. 27a, like 27b, is extremely cute in the before, thought she doesn’t look quite as bad afterwards. The rest pretty much look the same. The makeup may cover up flaws or add some color accents, but you have to remember that the standard for beauty goes up when makeup is clearly involved, so it cancels out. Our brains make adjustments based on expectation.
They definitely fail as for a refutation of what Martin said: not one of them is an example of an even average-looking woman becoming beautiful with makeup. They may sometimes look better, but that’s not the same thing. And I’m absolutely not the type to say that I prefer women with “no makeup.” (Heck, you could experiment with a bit of eyeshadow and lip gloss, based on that 2004 pic that “Noodles” put up.)
And, yes, “no makeup” means “no makeup,” with the exception of what even sven mentioned about zit cream and chapstick. Oh, and (suntan) lotion. None of those are makeup.*
But then you would still have all those tiny imperfections. The idea is that you can cover those up without anyone realizing you’re wearing makeup. You know, like make your skin less blotchy without looking like you’re wearing foundation.
A lot of teenage guys would kill for something like that if it worked.
I think you’re going to be in the minority on this, BigT, and your last point seems to be playing semantics games to score points–which I’m not the least interested in engaging. I’m not saying that I personally would want to look all glammed up like the “afters”. (I want to get cremated when I die because I’m afraid that’s what how the funeral home would have me looking like). I agree that the “afters” look quite fake and plasticky. But I still think most people would prefer the after over the before. You can tone down make-up to make it look less scary. But you can’t do much with absolutely nothing at all.
At any rate, it is a matter of opinion, not fact. You can’t convince me that 27b is cute without any make-up, because in my opinion she’s not cute. She’s not hideous. She’s not a monster. But she’s not my definition of cute. YMMobviouslyV, and that’s totally fine.
And thanks so much for the beauty tips! I wonder when you’ll post your pic so we can give you some pointers. 
Nope. It’s that unless he can show that as a matter of fact he always knows when a woman is wearing makeup and can accurately record his reaction without introducing statistical errors then the statement of his opinion has no significance. A woman deciding to wear makeup can’t rely on his statement of opinion as any kind of significant data point.
Quit being disingenuous. Another way a statement of preference can be wrong is if a person has been under an illusion as to the nature of the things he has preferred in the past. For example, I could be wrong when I say “I like pizza” if all along I’ve been including pies under that label.
Quit being disingenuous. He didn’t say he wasn’t allowed to state his opinion, he said he can’t rationally maintain his opinion.
Quit being disingenuous. It is a fact that I enjoy spaghetti. That’s a statement of fact about what my value judgments are. The same goes for what Martian Bigfoot said.
Guys, you’re arguing about makeup. WTF?
Don’t get me* started *on makeup. I think it is bordering on evil.
FWIW, I can see the “cuteness” that BigT is talking about and do prefer it over the “after” picture for #27b. And I “prefer” (whatever that means—and it does depend on the context) the “before” to the “after” in the clear majority of those pictures. Too many of those made-up women look like cartoon characters, or plastic Barbie dolls. (Though it might be that I’d prefer a picture with some subtle, natural-looking makeup over none at all, if that were one of the options.)
I think it’s almost certain that you would. At the very least, I don’t think those “natural” faces would look worse with a little foundation and lip gloss–which is pretty much what the majority of women wear when they are neither slumming or glamming.
As I said upthread, I rarely wear make-up. Whenever I visit you with the face, I like playing with her cosmetics. But in my everyday life, I don’t use it. And yet I know my appearance would be enhanced if I did, because I always look better when I am wearing a little.
The cosmetic industry is a billion dollar one for a reason. It’s not like women all over the world have been completely brainwashed (they may be a little brainwashed, but not “completely”).
Here is, for once, a man who gets it. If you don’t listen to the women here, will you listen to him?
For many years now I’ve held that the 16th one on that page, Penélope Cruz, is the most beautiful, glamorous, desirable woman in the whole world. But her before and after pictures—caramba. I could not believe my eyes. Was that really her? Or just a lookalike, a stunt double, without her fine proportions of features?
You’re right, it is entertaining.
Right. Most of us have years of data to support why makeup helps.
When I roll out of the bed in the morning, I don’t think of myself as ugly. But I feel like I’m as casual as I can possibly be. A little makeup simply takes me to a less casual state.
It’s just like clothes or anything else. No one is going to kill you if you wear sweatpants to the grocery store, but it’s probably smart to wear something else if you’re trying to look your best.
I used to try to wear make-up, but I was doing a very poor job of it. It looked clown-like. My husband would often say that he thought I looked much prettier without makeup.
Several years later, I started watching some tutorials and gradually learned to put on makeup non-garishly. My husband no longer says the “you look much prettier without makeup” line when I’m wearing it. He’s also admitted that the poor makeup applications I used to do were scaring him, but the more careful and more subtle technique I learned is very attractive.
I think it’s too narrow a scope to say “all women who are beautiful look better without makeup” and “no unattractive women can ever improve with makeup”. It can make a big difference. And sometimes men say that prefer no makeup might be thinking of makeup jobs they’ve seen that weren’t done well.
I made an offhand analogy between makeup and a suit and tie earlier. But thinking further, the analogy holds. Some women wear makeup all the time for professional reasons. Some wear it because they think they look better that way. But many of us reserve it for special occasions such as job interviews or funerals.
It makes perfect sense to me that someone would take you more seriously if you wear makeup. The same goes for a suit and tie if you’re a man. You’re speaking in generalities and I’m speaking in particulars. In general – women I’m sure know this better than I do – probably get treated differently and with more respect if they wear makeup. But just like a suit and tie, quite a few of us just think it’s overkill for day-to-day wear. I’m not like those “rebels” in the 80s who called neckties “corporate dog collars” and anyone who wore one a sellout. I’m not saying women are brainwashed or anything. I don’t know at first glance whether a particular woman I see in public is wearing makeup or not.
But for the women I specifically know, including who I’m in a relationship with, I absolutely have seen them both with and without makeup and I prefer the latter.
He wasn’t just some guy, he was a photographer talking to a model. That is a completely different situation.