I have met three different people who refused to believe that the moon rises and sets, just like the sun does.
Probably the biggest reason I hang out at this board is because it both allows me to find
- people who don’t think like I do in more original ways than usual
- samples of a rare breed that sometimes does actually think like I do
The person who is fundamentally and diametrically opposite of me in every way in life beleives:
Creationism over evolution (and she is a science teacher in 2nd grade :rolleyes: )
Beleives that if a woman dresses like a skanky ho she is asking to be raped. Men, apparently are just savage animals running around unable to control their baser instincts.
People who are gay chose to be gay and they can be changed back to being straight.
It is better for a pregnant teenager to marry her boyfriend so that the baby will not be a bastard ( :rolleyes: )
Believes very strongly in the bible and 10 commandments, yet takes advantage of her mother’s weakness ( spineless) to have her raise her 4 children.
Reads and Loves the Left Behind series.
Our sense of humor is not the same and when she tries to do ‘my’ humor it falls flat every time. She also does not get sarcasm most of the time.
This person is my SIL and since I have no options on my side of the family to leave our kids too in the event of our deaths, Mr. Ujest wants to leave the kids to this person’s care. I’d rather leave my kids in the care of a lottery-drawn Doper where I know they would have GQ, MPSIMS, PIT and GD skills developed nicely and openmindedly.
I became a Deist/Agnostic because of her and I have never thanked her enough.
You could cure them of their ignorance with a lawn chair and some duct tape! Rarely is it so easy! “There’s the Moon. It is rising. I will be back in 12 hours.”
Arwin, you’re on!
If a religion claims that their God is omnipotent and does not wish to be observed, it is indeed impossible to challenge that. However if religion claims that the Earth is the centre of the Universe, or that God answers prayers or that the Earth is about 6,000 years old, then we can examine the claim.
The logic of mathematics, built on axioms, is fine.
Are you suggesting that the proposition ‘Ra the Sun God pops up every morning in his Chariot to bring us daylight’ is equally valid with all other religions?
Nah, of course not. Hypotheses regarding specific phenomena and their causes (supernatural versus natural) can be tested by experiment and/or observation, and thus are falsifiable (providing you have the knowledge and technology to do so.) But the “God of the Gaps” line of argument, in which God (or whomever you like) sits behind the scenes and simple dictates the rules by which the physical world operates, lends itself nicely to strategic redeployment, as when you peel back each curtain you simply find more layers of fabric. Even a TOE theory wouldn’t defeat the argument that there is a supernatural intellegence who created the rules, and the Intellegent Design advocates are loving M-theory right now for its apparent arbitrariness in how the universe is defined; that is, the constants that define the rules of our universe that allow us to exist appear to be completely without preference, so in order for us to exist there must be some intellegence who picked those numbers.
I don’t buy that as an argument–it seems like building your skyscraper starting from the antenna tower and working down to the foundation–but there’s no falsification about a proported entity that can’t be observered or measured. I have found that there is no reason to assume an intellegence based upon the observational world, and most arguments put forth in defense of that premise (the Irreducible Complexity of the eye or the brain, for instance) are based more on our prior lack of knowledge and understanding (and sometimes deliberate obfuscation) than any fundamental impossibilities. And I don’t “feel” any need for a god of any sort.
Attempts at an ontological proof of the existance or falsification of a god have had limited “success” and acceptance based (surprise!) on the assumptions of the proof and interpretations of various steps of reason. Gödel may have killed God, but so few people (myself most definitely not included) are sufficiently versed and intellectually endowed to truly understand Gödel’s reasoning that his proof is not sufficient, at least for the majority, to make a definitive statement based on logic. Arguments to the other side lack equal conclusiveness. The truth is, we don’t absolutely know, and Pascal’s Wager is a fallacy for reasons which have been clearly and widely elucidated, so…I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.
Stranger
FYI, they are certainly not on equally un-PC footing. They may all be un-PC, but “nigger rigging”, and “jewing down the price” are far more offensive than “welshing” on a bet.
I find that there are few things in the world more volatile than ignorance.
I can’t remember when or where the first time I had the realization of others’ difference, but I bet it was with my extended family. Being educated (not just sitting in a classroom) in a diverse culture made me think of all Christians as “Us.” It was quite a shock to hear a Babtist relative talking about Methodists like they were some kind of inhuman, god-rejecting pagans. I continually find myself shocked and amazed when I hear stories about people who still think the moon is made of green cheese. I guess I’m close minded as well since it didn’t occur to me that it might, in fact, be made of green cheese. You know, since the moon landings were fake and all.
I was recently at the home of some very good friends. Smart people, nice and I love them dearly. He’s an architect, she’s a school teacher. I noticed the Left Behind books on their bookshelf. :eek: I never realized there were multiple volumes in the series! (How long can an author ride a high horse?) I know it’s not worth it to bring it up in conversation…
And if you think the Baptists (or, at least those that I’ve known) are bad about that, you should talk to some Pentecostalists.
Gromit, that’s it! Cheese! We’ll go somewhere where there’s cheese!
(beat)
Wallace: Everybody knows the moon is made of cheese…
Stranger
These seem to be about the only books (besides Tom Clancy and like novels) that most of my cow-orkers read; that is, those of them who read for pleasure at all.
And they are, for the most part, engineers, many with graduate degrees. :dubious:
Stranger
I hate just about every part of that. It’s based on a faulty premise, that God refuses to give evidence. I don’t know where that comes from, and I’m kind of insulted every time Newsweek thinks it’s being so deep by wrapping up its religion articles with its pithy “Well, it’s faith, so you’ll just believe it if you want to” comments.
What the Bible, at least, says is that there is evidence, but it’s spiritual evidence that you have to want to find. Now I realize that many people deny the very existence of a spiritual realm in the first place, but I’m just stating the facts here.
Jesus often indicated that he was willing to be obscure and be understood only by those who wanted to really listen and press in. He was “witnessing” to those who wanted to relate to him on a certain level.
Summary: Christians are not people who “choose” to believe (I sure hope). They have found evidence that is personal and not directly replicable.
In other words; their own delusions are ‘evidence’ 
Just a minor quibble:
THe middle three are mainstream to the Christian religion, so that shouldn’t suprise you.
And evidence of UFOs is all over the place. Evidence that UFOs are alien spacecraft, however, is not.
Pit thread opened (FAO Cardinal, but all are welcome) :
So as not to completely hijack this thread, I’ve started another relevant thread over in Great Debates.
Stranger