You must be watching different stuff than I am. Everything Halloween-related I see is creaky floors, howling wolves, and dilapidated houses. Spooky-ish, but perfectly innocent. If I want to see killing, violence, and gore, I can catch that on the other 99% of programming. Compare Disney’s Halloween Town to an average episode of Crossing Jordan and see which displays more eviscerated humans.
And despite the relativism of our times, some of us don’t feel that every set of beliefs is ipso facto equal. You’ll have to “accept” that we our going to have opinions about your decisions. This one is clearly wrongheaded. You obviously disagree, but in my humble opinion, you’re wrong. Pulling your kids out of school sorta shows that you’re attempting to insulate them from a cultural experience you don’t like. I don’t think that’s a healthy way to raise children as a general statement. In the specific case of Halloween, when you’re describing something that’s fun and pretty wholesome (aside from a couple days of high sugar intake :)), it’s even more bizarre and unjustifiable. You obviously have the right to raise your kids as you see fit, but that doesn’t mean you’re doing them any favors by denying them Halloween.
I can’t accept that you have different decisions. I can also call them bullshit.
FTR, my parents decided, when I was about six, that we were not going to celebrate Halloween anymore. We were not going to dress up anymore and we were going to turn our porch light out and hide in our own home when other kids came knocking.
This was for religious reasons; Halloween was just not a “healthy Christian holiday,” to paraphrase my mother.
Prior to that, I have vague memories of wearing my ballerina outfits and getting candy from neighbors. By the time my parents “got over” their aversion to Halloween–because they did, for reasons as goofy as their initial ones to avoid it–I was too old to go trick-or-treating. It was nice to finally turn that porch light back on, though, and not be those Weird Religious-Freak Neighbors anymore.
Am I a festering boil of resentment over it? No. Did I know what I was missing? Yes. Was Halloween nothing but a cool reason to dress up and get lots of candy, prior to my mother’s change of heart about it? Yes.
I think parents, grayhairedmomma included, get a little caught up in themselves sometimes, and forget that sometimes a plastic orange pumpkin full of candy is just…a plastic orange pumpkin full of freakin’ candy.
And even if her kids get over the fact that they can’t dress up in fun costumes and go out getting candy with their friends, there’s the other part of it…
a.) leaving the house every Halloween night,
b.) turning off all the lights and “hiding” on Halloween night, or,
c.) leaving all the lights on and hearing the doorbell ring for several hours, knowing you couldn’t answer it.
I hated that more than anything.
I’m sure she has great kids, and I’m sure there’s tons of love going around; I’m just saying I’ve been that kid who can’t celebrate Halloween and while it isn’t life-altering, it SUCKED.
grayhairedmomma, I’ve been following this thread with interest and I’ve got a few questions for you. I’m Episcopalian, and the churches I’ve gone to over the years have always acknowledged Halloween as the eve of All Saints Day.
At my old church, on the Sunday closest to Halloween/All Saints Day, kids were allowed to dress up as their favorite saint and process up the aisle at the start of the service to the tune “I Sing a Song of the Saints of God”. In practice, I’m not sure how many identified with specific saints; I suspect it was more of an excuse for the kids to wear their Halloween costumes to church. How would you feel about your kids participating in this?
On All Saints Day itself, my current church’s choir joined with another church’s choir to sing William Byrd’s Mass for Four Voices as part of an All Saints Day liturgy. I wasn’t able to attend, myself, so I’m afraid I can’t say what the content of the service was. What’s your take on such services?
On Friday night, my church will be having their annual Requiem service at which we honor those who’ve died. We’ll be singing a Requiem written in 1605. I’ll be singing with the choir and attending for the first time. This could be a bit poignant for me – among the names of the dead which will be read aloud will be that of my grandmother, who died this past January, and a former friend, who died last week. Part of my participation this year will be a way of honoring them. How do you feel about such a service and, if invited, would you or your family consider attending? (By the way, Guinastasia, if you’re interested, I think you know which church I attend. The service starts at 7:30, and of course you’d be welcome to attend.)
I grew up with both the secular and sacred aspects of Halloween/All Saints Day. My brothers and I had a blast running around the neighborhood, and the trading sessions when we got back could be fierce! I also learned in church about the saints and martyrs whose lives I still try to emulate, albeit more the saints than the martyrs! :eek: To me, it’s a time to honor those who’ve gone before and the lives they’ve led, as well as eat candy corn (I have a weakness for candy corn). My parents still decorate the house every Halloween and have a blast handing out candy to kids. One disappointment about the secure building where I live is that I don’t have kids coming to my door on Halloween night. I have been known to wear a costume to work, though, and I used to lead that procession of kids in full medieval garb with a sword in my hand. (If anyone asked, I was St. Joan of Arc. Even though she was French and led the fight against the British, I have a great deal of admiration for her and I freely admit that she was right and we were wrong.)
grayhairedmomma, I asked the things I did out of curiousity, not malice. I’m a bit of an odd duck, and I’m interested in learning why people think the way they do.
Respectfully,
CJ
Stop with all the violent imagery already!
I don’t like the more disturbing aspects of Halloween, either–I dislike slasher movies, and don’t enjoy haunted houses–I never got over those damned monkeys in Wizard of Oz–I’m a pussy when it comes to scarey things.
that said, I emphasize the theater aspects of Halloween to my kids–that and the fun. I nix any gory/violent costumes, period. The most violent one was a vampire who didn’t want the teeth or the blood(!). He looked cool in his cape, though!
I cannot agree with withholding TnT or Santa from children. Childhood is a magical time, when all things are possible and imagination runs rampant. Dia knows the daily toils and troubles come soon enough.
I’m sorry, greyhairedmomma --but unless you are allowing your kids to attend Halloween parties to which they have received invites (and most likely they never will because the conversation goes something like this: Mom: let’s invite Susie G, too. Kid-Mom, she doesn’t do Halloween–her mom won’t even let her come to school on Halloween. Mom: oh-well, we don’t want to offend anyone, so we won’t send her an invite. Now, about the decorations…)–you are forcing them to make the choice that you are comfortable with. No doubt your oldest disparages Halloween to protect your feelings. If she loves Harry Potter that much–I bet she loves the scene of the Halloween party as well–kids long to be a part of things–unless taught to state the party line to make their parents feel validated in their position. Your kids love and depend on you–they don’t see a choice before them, they feel compelled to regurgitate your teachings–until they hit adolescence.
I am picturing your oldest in college and dating someone seriously–and Halloween comes up. The disbelief and pity that is headed her way–and the conflict she faces as an adult–should she allow HER kids to TnT? Will you spread your disapproval to your grandkids, or will you see that some things in childhood are just good innocent fun?
How in hell is TnT bad? What is more meaningful than going house to house establishing a fragile patina of community in these narcissistic days? Kids never have that opportunity but once a year. It amazes me that anyone would deny that to a child. Please don’t complain about not knowing your neighbors or feeling left out of stuff.
As for no Santa–so much for magic and love and giving and goodness. Santa is all about love-despite the attempts to commercialize the hell out of him. Santa is about giving to ALL.
Sounds damn Christian to me.
But somehow I doubt that once teens, you will be happy as can be to give your blessings as they go off to Halloween parties etc. I dont’ buy that for a minute.
I honestly am having a hard time understanding why some of you are so concerned about people who don’t celebrate Halloween. Do you fret over children who don’t celebrate Christmas? or Easter? There are many many holidays that people do not celebrate for one reason or another and it is ok.
People on this board are usually a live and let live kind of group, so I am really puzzled with what seems to be real vitriol over someone whose family does not celebrate a holiday. Personally, I save the ‘your opinion is bullshit’ comments for people who advocate things like beating their children, not choosing to celebrate or not celebrate whatever holidays they wish.
Her children seem to be happy and healthy and as others have pointed out, greyhairedmomma is putting real thought into her decisions, when so many people are just letting their kids run amok. I respect that. I do celebrate Halloween, and I do see it as a fun day and time to eat candy and carve pumpkins, but I can also see that there is a darker side to it (whether intended in its origin or not, popular culture has put it out there) and if other people just don’t want to celebrate it that’s just fine and dandy with me.
She is not condemning or judging others who do celebrate it and I give her the same respect.
I would argue that there are legitimate reasons for not celebrating Christmas or Easter (not being Christian, for instance!) and that grayhairedmomma pretty clearly doesn’t have any strong reasons for denying this to her kids. I’m viewing this within the context of what I see as a trend towards an overall splintering of society into subgroups that I find troubling - while individual and cultural traditions are important and should be preserved, I don’t like to see people who have some particular ideological agenda choosing to insulate their families from other views. I see this most among fundamentalist Christians, or rather the subgroup that homeschools their children; chooses only “Christian” entertainment; does their socializing within church groups; doesn’t let their kids watch popular, age-appropriate TV shows because of “unChristian” content; and the like.
I find it equally troubling when parents from the other end of the spectrum do the same - it’s a good thing to have your own views, but it’s an entirely different matter when your kids don’t have any real contact with the world outside of the Southern Baptist Convention or the Granola Collective (as the case may be.) This is a trend that’s further pushed by the modern supremacy of niche newsmedia that make no bones about only catering to certain political viewpoints. I don’t think it’s healthy to try to isolate children from the influence of other viewpoints. And grayhairedmomma gives me the distinct impression that she’s leaning that way.
And as a general opinion, I don’t like the overly abstemious parents who originally inspired this thread either. But that’s a simpler matter - denying your kids fun because it’s not ideologically pure enough or contains too much high fructose corn syrup seems just plain mean to me.
Frankly, I don’t think that’s true. Certainly her statements that Halloween is “all about greed” and too violent and gorey don’t hold much water. Those are nonsense justifications for what she’s doing, not accurate explanations. On the other hand, if they really are the reason for her choice, then her choice is wrong because she made it under false assumptions.
Sure, but it’s not like you’re forced to experience those things. You have to go out of your way to find them. In fact, this year I was frantically searching for scary movies on TV, was frustrated to learn that there were next to none. When the scariest thing you can find on TV during Halloween is “The Wonderful World of Heidi”, there’s a problem.
You are obviously in a different location than I am. I hate seeing skeletons and blood-dripping monsters, etc. in the frackin’ supermarket. I hated the ads for ghastly movies (Corpse Bride, anyone? <insert puke smiley here>) in my newspaper. I hated the nasty ads for “Halloween specials” running during the few tv shows I watch.
I let my kids dress up and go out for Halloween, but I still think it’s a nasty “holiday,” and I’m glad it’s over. Sure, the little kids get to “be” princesses and ladybugs and firemen. But a lot of it is about gore, horror and death. And not in a positive way like that Mexican “Dia del Muertos” one.
What Excal said.
I have fundamentalist home school neighbors–who didn’t let their kids TnT, but eagerly await my kids displaying their costumes. And their kids could go to Halloween parties, in costume.
The kids got to feel a part of things, but still held true to their parent’s teachings. I don’t agree with the parents at all-religiously, politcally or whatever, but their kids were at least exposed to mainstream culture and were not outcast. And they in turn did not sit judgement on me and my kids–a nice healthy respect and balance was achieved.
General remark: I have never understood how and why fervent faith equates to secular bad. The days of people living in caves in poverty to be closer to their god are long gone. Hairshirts don’t need to be worn to prove one’s worth–choices need to be made that allow for social context and values.
Jeebus, whatever happened to love thy neighbor as thyself? Seems to me that would include tolerance and compromise to some extent, no? Yes, it cuts both ways–but I myself question the motives behind the ban on Halloween.
I don’t think anyone here thinks that greyhairedmomma is a bad parent. What I get from these posts is a questioning of her rationales for nixing Halloween. Dissing/ignoring it won’t make it go away. Bending the celebration to reflect your values would be a more potent weapon in the fight against “greed” and “selfishness”.
And I disagree that toddlers are selfish and self-centered. Many a toddler I know has shown empathy and sympathy to another lil tyke, pet or even adult. Selfishness need not be rewarded, but kids to me are born good-and that needs nurturing, not rigorous imposition of arbitrary standards to serve what exactly? Still not clear on that one.
I find this kind of subgroup troubling as well.
Having grown up in a Christian school and in a conservative Christian area I know exactly what you are talking about, but I also know there are about as many degrees of this as there are individuals. I see many people making choices for their own families about what is appropriate for their own children without trying to impose it on others and I do not fault them for that. People are going to make mistakes with their kids, maybe by being overprotective or maybe by letting them see and do too much but there is certainly a wide range in there where kids will still grow up to be ok. (Thank goodness for that!)
This is one of those times where I think it is not worth the hassle. I agree with the OP that sactimonious I-know-better-than-you crap is eye-rollingly stupid but I think the worst thing about that is the part where they announce to everyone what they are doing and try to push it on others or down their throats, and it doesn’t sound like greyhairedmomma is doing that at all. At that point I say to each their own. I don’t think her kids are going to be in therapy over this or have trouble dating later in life because of it. My parents wouldn’t let us do anything on Sundays and I never really understood exactly why at the time, but I am none the worse for it overall (even though I had to watch all the other kids go swimming…snif) it was their house their rules.
I don’t think she even needs a religious reason to abstain from a holiday. I should be able to abstain from Halloween because I look bad in orange if I feel like it.
But what if your kids look great in orange?
I have no problem with individual decisions for that individual. You could rail against Halloween to your heart’s content and even try to persuade me (you would fail), but this is a holiday that is primarily for kids.
tolerance extends to actions–not approval. All I’m saying.
tdn --some of the stuff out there for Halloween is disgusting. I don’t mind spooky–I mind violent and gorey. Plenty of folks confuse and equate the two (not saying you do).
Just as an aside, I agree with this. I don’t make a distinction or draw a line between religious / secular and I know many Christians that don’t. I think we are all in agreement more than not here, I think many people maybe see witholding Halloween as a sign that she is sheltering her kids in more ways or withdrawing them from all mainstream culture? I see it more as just one thing that parents have to make a decision about, one of many. It may or may not mean her kids are sheltered, but it doesn’t necessarily follow. She hasn’t said anything that makes me think her kids are outcasts or anything though.
But surely you extend some type of limits when it comes to your children. You can’t raise them without inflicting some kind of value system. Just because something is for kids does not mean I have to let my kids do it. I can raise my children within my belief system and still teach them respect for others’ beliefs. Tolerance does not mean let your kids do anything that everyone else does. I don’t let my son watch certain things on tv but I realize that other parents might have their reasons for doing so. That doesn’t mean I think it is ok for my kid.
But if you decide that something’s not right for your kid, that doesn’t mean I have to approve of your decision, even though I can’t stop you from doing it. You certainly can’t help but inflict a value system on your kids - but that doesn’t mean all value systems are created equal, and it certainly doesn’t mean that working to instill good values and working to shelter your kids from other opinions are equivalent. People instill all sorts of values in their kids that I think to be false, distasteful, or even repugnant. All I’m doing is weighing in with an opinion here, not calling up my pals at the Radical Gay Liberal Hippie Correct Thought Squad to go in and sing protest songs outside her house.
If you think she’s doing the right thing, feel free to argue that point. But I’m starting to feel that you’re suggesting we’re wrong to even state our own disagreement with her practices. Tolerating other people’s actions doesn’t mean that I have to view everything with a value-neutral stance (not that it’s particularly possible.)
And hey, I don’t think that grayhairedmomma is going to end up turning her kids into career criminals or MBAs or something like that - I just don’t think it’s the optimal choice. My only real ire is reserved for the holier-than-thou types described by the OP; grayhairedmomma doesn’t strike me that way at all.
Eh. Probably not outcasts, but definitely missing out and labeled as “different”, and not in a good way. Childhood is difficult enough. Taking away the fun bits because you don’t like the message that YOU see is, IMO, cheating your kids. As I said, I still disagree with her decision, but I respect her right to make it.
She’s not injecting heroin into her kids’ eyeballs, fercryssakes. I just wish she could be a bit more openminded on their behalf. OTOH, if the religion that I think is involved is in fact the driving belief behind this decision, I’d say chances of that are slim and none, and Slim’s out of town.
I disagree with your view on Halloween but that fact doesn’t upset me. Basically, with regard to creepy gross-out Halloween displays of “gore, horror, and death”, all I can say is: it’s a “guy” thing, you wouldn’t understand. It’s the same reason why boys like to seek out roller-coasters at an amusement while their mothers don’t want them to ride anything wilder than a merrie-go-round. Maybe it’s hard-wired into our Y-chromosomes but most older boys and young men don’t mind–and even enjoy–all the ghoulishness that’s around during the month of October. Somehow we’re able to detach ourselves from all underlying morbidity and “nastiness” and just have a good time with it.
By the way, before I come across as a complete sexist jerk, let me state that many women also don’t have a problem some of the gorier aspects of the holiday. I just find this distaste is more widespread with females than males.
Now that would be a cool costume!