People who hate children

[meara]

@Katriona

What a load of balls. Nobody’s popping out kids out of altrusim. You had 'em because you wanted 'em. That’s fine. But pretending you’re doing something all noble out of the goodness of your heart is just crap.

I do not mean to suggest that parents are motivated by altruism, but rather that what they do for their own reasons happens to be necessary to society and worth supporting by all. Kind of like how most doctors and firefighters choose those careers for their own reasons, but we honor them anyway for the good they do and the personal freedom they’ve given up to do it (wearing beepers, waking up in the middle of the night, etc.).

Parenthood is very hard work, and the difficulty takes most new parents by surprise, despite warnings from the experienced parents around them. If not for the support of their communities, many might give up at one child, leading to negative population growth and economic decline.

Consider Japan, where government and businesses are now offering a range of incentives to encourage pregnancy and combat falling birthrates. A quick google search turned up the following blurb, but I’ve read of lots of other initiatives – from cash bonuses to special train accommodations for pregnant women and for children.

Japan: Incentives Offered To Reverse Falling Birthrate. The average birthrate for a Japanese woman was just 1.38 in 1998, Japan’s record low and among the lowest in the world. The Bandai Corporation, a toy company, has begun offering its employees $10,000 for every baby born after their second child. The government and employers are attempting to reverse record-low birthrates, but most Japanese feel that it’s just too difficult and expensive to have more than two children. Previous initiatives for encouraging births have included making it more economical to raise children – extending flexible work hours, family leave and child care and offering cash and monthly subsidies. Japanese government officials deny, however, that such offers are directly intended to promote childbirth. In a related article, Japan Headed For World’s Highest Percentage Of Elderly, Japan is concerned that declining birthrates and an aging population will curb economic growth, as there will be fewer workers to support the elderly. Government officials said that by 2005, the percentage is expected to reach 19.6%, the highest in the world, surpassing Sweden, currently at 17%. $99 billion has been set aside for solutions to the aging problem. The median age is expected to raise from 41 to 49. Life expectancy for women, at just over 84 years, is the world’s highest. May 30, 2000 NY Times/ABC News

[mswas]

@Anaamika

I honestly never heard it that way - when I first heard it, I heard it as the class of people I am in. Then suddenly I started having to defend it against people who thought I was a childhater.

When I say I am childless I get looks of pity and downright rude questions. “Why don’t you have kids? Don’t you want them?” I can have kids and don’t want, it seems kind of horrible to equate myself to people with fertility issues.

I am particularly sensitive to it because a really good friend of mine is having these troubles. His wife cries over it. He tries not to show it but I can see it strikes at his masculinity. (It’s his sperm that’s the problem.) He doesn’t talk much about it but I know it’s tearing him up.

We are so far from the same boat that it seems wrong somehow to use the same word.

I understand, but unfortunately like every other ideological subgroup childfree’s most prominent spokespeople are its biggest assholes.

[mswas]

Parenthood is not motivated by altruism, but it does in many cases, increase a person’s sense of responsibility and their compassion and empathy.

[meara]

I’ll follow up to add that I don’t think parents should be seen as martyrs or given special treatment – just that it’s counter-productive to try to make their jobs even harder by holding them accountable for every outburst of the irrational creatures they’ve taken on to raise.

Children have minds of their own. What works on one probably doesn’t work on another. What works on Monday probably doesn’t work on Tuesday. What works in a Chuck E. Cheese almost certainly doesn’t help in a grocery store. Some kids are easy and make their parents’ lives a delight. Others are hard and drive their parents insane. Despite the pride of the former, this does not always correlate particularly well with parenting skill, as parents of three or more children will often relate.

Kids fuss. Life goes on. All a bystander can do is hope that the parent is doing his/her best to help that child act more civilly in the future.

[starwarsfreek42]

@Kalhoun

Nothing would get done if the world catered to those who found certain sounds to be unbearable. How is the parent supposed to keep the appointment she made with a contractor if she’s spending her afternoon holed up in a grocery store restroom? What if there’s someone in the bathroom that also gets annoyed by the sound of a crying child? There are situations where a crying kid is not acceptable; the theater, an adult-oriented restaurant, etc. The grocery store is not one of those places. Go ahead and be annoyed (we all are), but the parent isn’t breaking any social contract by continuing to shop for fruit roll-ups and pot roast while the child is throwing a fit.

I don’t care about her appointment with the contractor, that’s not my problem. The grocery store is definitely a place where it isn’t acceptable for a child to be screaming for more than a few seconds. It annoys adults, it makes people with anxiety problems nervous, it riles up the other kids.

@Suse

I love it when people who don’t have kids tell everyone how they would raise their own. Because when it comes to the moment of actually having to do it, you’ll do what you have to at the time given the circumstances and the child in question, as child A may react very differently than child B to discipline. It’s fine (okay, it’s funny) to predict that you would be the perfect parent who never causes anyone any inconvenience due to your children’s behaviors but it almost never happens that way.

No doubt there are bratty kids and shitty parents. For me they tend to stand out because there are so many other kids who are well-behaved and parents who aren’t afraid to discipline their kids. But that doesn’t mean they are the majority, just more noticeable. And a few minutes of someone else’s kid screaming in the grocery store doesn’t hurt me, doesn’t make me late, and doesn’t ruin my day.

I don’t think anybody here has suggested that screaming kids will hurt them, or make them late, or ruin their day. It’s just inconsiderate on the part of the parents.

@Long_Time_First_Time

I’m pretty sure everybody PLANS on keeping a sharp mind as they age. I’ve not met somebody once who said they hoped to become senile and live their final decade in a vegetative state.

I sure hope you’re not wasting your money on health insurance. That would be foolish.

No, I can’t afford health insurance right now, but what has that got to do with children in a nursing home?

@Jack_Batty

I was thinking that he just hates getting bullied by the 12 year olds at the comic book conventions.

There is nothing in my user name about comic books. And I’m a chick.

[Jackmannii]

@meara

Parenthood is very hard work, and the difficulty takes most new parents by surprise, despite warnings from the experienced parents around them. If not for the support of their communities, many might give up at one child, leading to negative population growth and economic decline.

Not to mention putting anti-global warming activists and other environmentalists out of work.

Breadlines. Abandoned farms. Desolate cities.

And but a lone voice crying in the wilderness.
MA!!! I want it NOW!!! WAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!

[Kalhoun]

@starwarsfreek42

I don’t care about her appointment with the contractor, that’s not my problem. The grocery store is definitely a place where it isn’t acceptable for a child to be screaming for more than a few seconds. It annoys adults, it makes people with anxiety problems nervous, it riles up the other kids.

You’re wrong. You will not get your money back because you had an unpleasant shopping experience. You will not be considered a crusader for Shopper’s Rights. You will be considered a whiny and unrealistic putz if you think your shopping experience should be a protected zone. Suck it up already. The world owes you exactly nothing. You’re not entitled to a nice day.

[starwarsfreek42]

@meara

I’ll follow up to add that I don’t think parents should be seen as martyrs or given special treatment – just that it’s counter-productive to try to make their jobs even harder by holding them accountable for every outburst of the irrational creatures they’ve taken on to raise.

Children have minds of their own. What works on one probably doesn’t work on another. What works on Monday probably doesn’t work on Tuesday. What works in a Chuck E. Cheese almost certainly doesn’t help in a grocery store. Some kids are easy and make their parents’ lives a delight. Others are hard and drive their parents insane. Despite the pride of the former, this does not always correlate particularly well with parenting skill, as parents of three or more children will often relate.

Kids fuss. Life goes on. All a bystander can do is hope that the parent is doing his/her best to help that child act more civilly in the future.

Um, they are accountable for every outburst because they CREATED the thing that’s doing the outbursting. Why would giving a kid a toy or singing it a song or playing a game work in Chuck E. Cheese but not in aisle 3? What about a waiting room? As a bystander, if I don’t see a parent actively trying to quiet a child or else remove it from the situation, I will assume they aren’t very good at their job. Also as a bystander, I can certainly tell them to get their kid to STFU because it’s annoying and they suck.

[starwarsfreek42]

@Kalhoun

You’re wrong. You will not get your money back because you had an unpleasant shopping experience. You will not be considered a crusader for Shopper’s Rights. You will be considered a whiny and unrealistic putz if you think your shopping experience should be a protected zone. Suck it up already. The world owes you exactly nothing. You’re not entitled to a nice day.

Of course the world owes me nothing, where does that come in? I may not be entitled to a nice day, but they aren’t entitled to let their spawn scream and wail at the expense of everybody in a store. Taking it outside isn’t asking all that much. My husband and I got in an argument in a store once, and you know what we did? We took it outside, so as not to annoy the other customers.

[Kalhoun]

@starwarsfreek42

Of course the world owes me nothing, where does that come in? I may not be entitled to a nice day, but they aren’t entitled to let their spawn scream and wail at the expense of everybody in a store. Taking it outside isn’t asking all that much. My husband and I got in an argument in a store once, and you know what we did? We took it outside, so as not to annoy the other customers.

The thing is, putting up with the growing process of children IS your problem if you live in a free society. You don’t have to like it. You don’t even have to listen to the screaming. You have the opportunity to leave the premises if you don’t like it. The crying toddlers have as much right to be there as you do. Shop on line if that makes the task more bearable. Heh-heh…I can’t believe you compare adults arguing with toddlers crying. Keeee-rist.

[Jack_Batty]

@starwarsfreek42

There is nothing in my user name about comic books.

There’s nothing in your user name about humorless douche-bags either. What’s your point?

[SmellMyWort]

@starwarsfreek42

it makes people with anxiety problems nervous

Hum, the dots are starting to connect…

[Shodan]

They say there are two kinds of people in the world - those who masturbate, and those who lie about it.

There are also two other kinds - those who admit that their children sometimes acted embarrassing in public, or that they acted embarrassing in public, and those who lie about it.

No, your mommy didn’t always whisk you away at the first sign of trouble. And if you saw some kid doing now exactly what you did then, you would be saying the same things, verbatim.

@starwarsfreek42

I don’t care about her appointment with the contractor, that’s not my problem.

OK. And the fact that you are acting like an asshole when the grocery store isn’t as quiet as St. Paul’s Cathedral during a state funeral isn’t mine.

Regards,
Shodan

[Kalhoun]

@SmellMyWort

Hum, the dots are starting to connect…

I was going to comment on that myself but I didn’t want to make anyone anxious.

[Malthus]

@Lynn_Bodoni

Actually, I was constantly getting comments from everyone around me about what a great kid Lisa was. I did get some negative comments because I allowed Lisa to use a pacifier until she didn’t need one any more, and because I used a harness contraption on her when she was a toddler, again until she didn’t need one any more. Some babies and toddlers have more of a sucking instinct than others, more than is fulfilled by feeding, so I used a pacifier, and everyone was happy, except those people who wanted to see her face. And just about all toddlers need to be restrained in certain places. For example, when I took her shopping with me, she had the harness on, and she wasn’t able to dart away from me and into something dangerous. The harness had some straps that would keep her securely in a shopping cart or stroller. When I took her to the park or similar area, I allowed her to roam and play freely, because a park is DESIGNED to let kids run and play, unlike, say, a restaurant. Some people disapproved of having her in a harness. Many people, though, thought it was a great idea.

I also strapped her securely into her car seat. Every. Single. Time. Even if it was just a two block trip. She got used to the idea that going someplace in the car meant that she was going to be in that car seat, all belted in. My sister in law, on the other hand, sometimes would belt her kids in, but often wouldn’t bother. So of course, her kids kicked up and screamed when she did try to belt them in. She’d taught them that throwing a hissy fit was the method to get their way, not only in the case of car seats, but in every instance. Guess which kid was able to comply with teachers’ instructions when she went to school, and which kid wasn’t? It’s not that my SIL didn’t try, sometimes, it’s that she wasn’t consistent in trying. My daughter and I had some real matches, but I was the adult, the parent, and I never forgot that.

My daughter has grown up into a responsible adult. She’s successfully launched, has a great career, and is happy in her life. Her dad wishes that she’d get married and start popping out grandkids, but she doesn’t want any kids yet. My SIL’s kids, on the other hand…one is an unmarried mother, who works a variety of shitty jobs. Since she was allowed to have her boyfriends sleep over when she was in high school, I don’t think that anyone was too terribly surprised at this. Her son is under investigation for fraud and theft at his previous job. From what my husband tells me, the kid actually did rip off his employer for several tens of thousands of dollars of equipment. Not surprisingly, the kid (OK, he’s in his 30s, but since he’s a family member in the generation younger than I, he’ll be a kid to me for a while yet) is finding it extremely difficult to land another job that doesn’t involve asking the customer if he’d like to supersize that order.

In other words, it’s not just the non-parents who think that some people have shitty parenting skills. We KNOW what it’s like to be parents, we KNOW what it’s like when our child-rearing theories all go flying out the window, and we KNOW that if you don’t work at being a parent, then you’ll have rotten kids. And rottener adults. Parenting is a constant job, and you can’t take a child into a restaurant and expect him to somehow just know not to stick french fries in his nose. You have to teach him not to. And you have to teach little Suzy not to discuss your family’s religious views with every person, friend or stranger, unless that person has asked about them. This is especially true if Little Suzy has been visiting Crazy Uncle Jack Chick again, and is merrily informing everyone that they are going to Hell if they haven’t accepted Jesus into their hearts.

My point is, yeah, kids don’t have perfect social skills. But they are never going to learn social skills unless Mom or Dad or whoever is raising the little hellions takes the time to teach and reinforce good behavior. Letting kids run around the grocery store, playing and breaking the toys for sale? That doesn’t teach good behavior. Dropping kids off at the toy store while parents go shopping in another mall store? That’s…I’d like to say unbelievable, but alas, I’ve seen it happen often, and heard about it even more often. I see too many kids running around without supervision, in places where this isn’t appropriate. Letting kids run around on a playground, shrieking and showing off is fine. And if I go to a playground or park, I expect to see and hear loud children. If I go to a museum, though, I expect parents to keep their kids off the “look only” exhibits.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect parents to control their kids in a public setting, and to have some consideration for the other people who wish to use that setting. If I go to McDonald’s, and sit out in the play area, I anticipate a noisy atmosphere. If I go to Denny’s, then sure, I expect kids there. However, I don’t want to have a kid plop himself down at my table and announce that he wants some of my cake. (Yeah, this happened. I told him to ask his auntie to buy him cake, if he wanted it. He said that everyone always gave him some of their cake. I told him that I was not everyone, and that he wasn’t getting cake from ME. He went crying to his auntie, who gave me a very cold look. It turned even colder when I finished eating the third of the portion that I’d planned to, and then stopped a busboy so I could deposit the uneaten portion directly into the waste bin. Yeah, I’m a bitch. But I don’t think that bad behavior should be rewarded. The boy in question was at least 10, and possibly as old as 13.)

Lest you think that I’m a total bitch, though, consider this. On occasion, I’ve given random kids a book. I enjoy the Little House books, and sometimes a kid will politely ask me about it when I’m out. If the child seems to be interested in the book, I will offer it. I buy these books used, not to give away, but because I’m frugal and my royalties wouldn’t go to a living author anyway. At any rate, some kids are really excited, especially if they’ve already read a Wilder book and want to read more. The key is, the kid has to be polite and respectful, and I will make allowances for youth in my expectations.

I have no doubt you got complements on your parenting, along with some negative comments. Thing is, only you would know that. Someone may see you leading your kid around on a lead sucking on a pacifier and think ‘that woman’s crazy - the kid is way too old to be sucking on a pacifier and on a leash’ - but what THAT person DOESN’T know, is that many others have complemented you on how well behaved, well adjusted etc. the kid is, or that she will grow up to be responsible etc. Those making the snap judgment were simply misinformed. They didn’t see the big picture. They took a single incident and made a generalization about it, one that as it turns out was unjustified. They did not understand your purpose, that your methods were different from theirs, better suited to your kid, and maybe better period.

[Maeglin]

@Malthus

I have no doubt you got complements on your parenting, along with some negative comments. Thing is, only you would know that. Someone may see you leading your kid around on a lead sucking on a pacifier and think 'that woman’s crazy

Making your kid suck on a lead pacifier is pretty fucking crazy, when you get right down to it.

[SteveG1]

Kids are kids. I don’t expect them to be “little grownups”. My parents didn’t expect that of me (although they did set limits on tolerable behavior), and I wouldn’t expect it from a kid. Some kids are little monsters, and some aren’t. Some are out of control, some are over controlled. I understand about the terrible two’s. I understand kids get antsy if they stay put for too long.

That’s all well and good. I don’t love your kid, any more than I hate your kid. I don’t know the kid, so how could I have feelings either way? Kids are just kids. But, “you” as a parent should be the one in charge. Someone has to set the rules.

Shodan hit on something very basic - Kids are doing the same kid things we ALL did when we were kids. And, as “grown ups”, we are doing the same thing grown ups always did - we bitch about “the kids today”. It’s just how it is. I was a little angel, you are a little demon (and yes I’m lying out my ass when I say that). Uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow, etc etc etc. Now get off my lawn.

[Malthus]

@Maeglin

Making your kid suck on a lead pacifier is pretty fucking crazy, when you get right down to it.

Lead’s a soft metal. Tasty, too.

[mswas]

@meara

I’ll follow up to add that I don’t think parents should be seen as martyrs or given special treatment – just that it’s counter-productive to try to make their jobs even harder by holding them accountable for every outburst of the irrational creatures they’ve taken on to raise.

Children have minds of their own. What works on one probably doesn’t work on another. What works on Monday probably doesn’t work on Tuesday. What works in a Chuck E. Cheese almost certainly doesn’t help in a grocery store. Some kids are easy and make their parents’ lives a delight. Others are hard and drive their parents insane. Despite the pride of the former, this does not always correlate particularly well with parenting skill, as parents of three or more children will often relate.

Kids fuss. Life goes on. All a bystander can do is hope that the parent is doing his/her best to help that child act more civilly in the future.

That is what bothers me, people don’t treat children as though they are individual people but rather appendages of adults. Thus you hear that parents consume more resources than non-parents. They are viewing the consumption of two people as though it’s the consumption of one person. My family consumes enough for three people because it contains through people, so of course we consume more than a household of two, because we are a household of three.

It’s the dehumanization of children that bugs me.

[mswas]

@starwarsfreek42

I don’t care about her appointment with the contractor, that’s not my problem. The grocery store is definitely a place where it isn’t acceptable for a child to be screaming for more than a few seconds. It annoys adults, it makes people with anxiety problems nervous, it riles up the other kids.

That’s just unrealistic expectations on your part. Basically you are saying that we as parents are bad people if we can’t accomplish the impossible. First off if a kid starts screaming on average it’s longer than a few seconds. Second, it takes more than a few seconds to reach the exit so they can scream outside. What are we supposed to do sprint for the door leaving our cart the moment the kid starts fussing?