[QUOTE=Marley23]
something like "Randy Moss ran over my mother with a car
[/QUOTE]
No, the woman he ran over with his car here in Minneapolis was not married and not anyones’ mother.
She was a policewoman working in traffic at the time. He was dumb enough to do this at a time when he had illegal drugs in his car. (Or maybe not so dumb – maybe he knew that the charges would be reduced to almost nothing for a big player like him).
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee]
Of course not. He saves his worst vitriol to direct at his own team.
[/QUOTE]
Jesus Christ Ellis, I supported this team all year when people were calling for the heads of Eli & Coach Coughlin. I hated Fassel, why is that such a betrayal. Do you really think he was a good coach? I hated Ray Handly too. I hope you don’t find that offensive. Do you remember 70s Giants? I do, that is the team I started rooting for. A team that was terrible. At least this terrible team did not fight itself in playoff games (of course they never sniffed a playoff game).
Did you forget the Giants defense and offense fighting each other on the sidelines? Did you forget the coach completely mismanaging time and calling terrible plays as the train went off the cliff against the 49’ers? I hate Fassel. Since when does being a fan of team have to include loving the coach? That damn lucky playoff run got us saddled with 3 more years of a bad coach. It took Tom several seasons to undo the poisonous locker room that Fassel allowed to be created.
You know this actually hurts as I do respect your opinion on football. You clearly know far more than I do as I am a casual football fan except for the Giants. I only watch about 20 regular season games in a year and of those 14-16 are Giant games. I bow to your football expertise as I bow to **RickJay’s ** baseball expertise. I know far more about baseball however. I have lived and died with the Giant’s since 1973 or so. I watched the Pisarcik fumble as it happened. That kind of thing can scar you for life. Maybe not as bad as Buckner, but pretty damn close.
So would you please drop this already?
Jim
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net]
No, the woman he ran over with his car here in Minneapolis was not married and not anyones’ mother.
She was a policewoman working in traffic at the time. He was dumb enough to do this at a time when he had illegal drugs in his car. (Or maybe not so dumb – maybe he knew that the charges would be reduced to almost nothing for a big player like him).
[/QUOTE]
I know the details. I was using it as a jumping-off point for a joke.
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy]
You are more than welcome to that sentence, my friend. 
Don’t you wish every fan on either side of this great Super Bowl would behave the way we’re doing it? You’re one Giant fan it warms my heart to congratulate: You were never dismissive of the Patriots leading up to the game, never dismissive of their fans, and you deserve every scrap of satisfaction you take from your team’s victory.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you, I do prefer friendly rivalry to hatred.
I have just reactivated my Sig for a while.
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net]
No, the woman he ran over with his car here in Minneapolis was not married and not anyones’ mother.
She was a policewoman working in traffic at the time. He was dumb enough to do this at a time when he had illegal drugs in his car. (Or maybe not so dumb – maybe he knew that the charges would be reduced to almost nothing for a big player like him).
[/QUOTE]
This is pretty off-topic, but your comments are bullshit. Moss was prosecuted to the extent of the law for the crimes he committed. In fact, the Minneapolis police WANTED to prosecute him for more, but a roach and traffic violation are misdemeanors. All of which was amply covered in local news.
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy]
being so far South, you know, force of gravity and all that.
[/QUOTE]
Pfft. So that must explain the sudden droop of my boobs. I was perky up in NY. 
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I hate Fassel. Since when does being a fan of team have to include loving the coach? That damn lucky playoff run got us saddled with 3 more years of a bad coach. It took Tom several seasons to undo the poisonous locker room that Fassel allowed to be created.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, it would appear that all it took was for Tiki to retire. (Though Coughlin’s “come to Jesus” meeting with the owners this past offseason probably didn’t hurt.)
I don’t have a problem at all with you hating the coach. I loved Fassel, but I hated Handley as much as you. Hell, I hated Reeves. Not only do I not have a problem with you hating Fassel, but I would defend your right to hate him. I would argue that Johnnie Lynn was the black hole of suck, especially in San Francisco, but if you really want to lay the blame for a 39-38 loss on the offense, by all means blame Fassel. I would also point out that the league screwed the Giants out of that game, officially apologizing for the ref screw-up that cheated the Giants out of another game-winning FG attempt that was rightfully theirs.
What I have a big problem with is you attacking the 2000 team as “shitty” and “lucky.” That’s a fucking disgrace. They were the #1 seed, and they fucking annihilated the Vikings in the Conference Championship. There isn’t a single aspect of the 2000 team making the Superbowl that could possibly be chalked up to luck, and they were no shittier than any other team that got blown out in the Superbowl. ie: not shitty at all.
Did you really hate the team immediately after that 41-0 win? If so, then you’re a terrible, terrible fan. If you liked the team at that point, but the subsequent 2002 wildcard loss retroactively blinded you with hate-colored glasses, well, I can’t really blame you for it but I sure as hell won’t respect you for it either.
oops :smack:
Then you haven’t been reading the thread. I suggest you go back and do so.
If you have read the thread, then your analysis is faulty and I suggest some sort of educational remedy. Like an education.
Oh, well, since we’re going point-by-point…
And let’s remember what I said in my first post: I’m not a football fan - I’m the wife of a football fan, who responded to the OP by discussing why I, personally, was peachy keen with the Patriots not winning the Superbowl. People other than rabid, obsessively informed sports fans are entitled to opinions about sports - and this was mine. Clearly advertised as such, I might add.
[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
What should they have done? Seriously? Should they have mentioned it every week? Worn sackcloth and ashes to the postgame press conferences? Wept openly? Should Junior Seau have flagellated himself on public television because his coach got caught in a minor technical violation?
It’s not like they went out each week and said, “Fuck all y’all, we cheated and we’re happy about it.” What did you expect?
[/QUOTE]
I didn’t expect a season of sackcloth and ashes - but every response I, personally, saw or heard of from them wasn’t even marginally apologetic - instead they went with “righteously outraged that you could doubt our integrity”, which strikes me as both profoundly disingenuous and obnoxious behavior for a group that got caught violating the rules of their sport. I didn’t see or hear about an apology - if they made one at all, it was on the down-low. That, to me, would have been the absolute, bare-bones minimum they should have done.
[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
I must have missed that. Can you point me toward a few quotes? Can you show me where Tom Brady is quoted as saying “we’re awesome and everyone else needs to step off,” or where Matt Light insulted the mama of some opposing defensive tackle? Because every quote from a Patriot that I read - all year - was basically: “Talk is cheap. We take every team seriously, and we’re focusing on our next opponent; we’ll let our play on the field do the talking.” Did they produce reams of bulletin-board fodder that I missed? Sure, the canned quotes were boring and trite, but asshole-ish? Only if you’re predisposed to think they’re assholes.
[/QUOTE]
No need to be snarky with me, sir. The interviews I saw and heard, the press meetings I caught clips and bits of, inevitably had me thinking “Man, these guys are arrrogant jackassess” at the end of them. Their whole attitude was smug and totally dismissive of the other players. Granted, professional athletes quite often come off that way, but this is the first time I’ve had *every single * interview with a given team leave me with that taste in my mouth.
And I’m not predisposed to think anything a’tall about them. I only follow football to the extent required to make marginally intelligent conversation with my dearly beloved husband about it. In essence, it’s a purely academic pursuit to me - and not one I’m interested in personally. I don’t actually care about it in the slightest. Hell, one can’t even plausibly argue I’ve let my own view be tainted by my husband’s fandom - I’ve known my family a lot longer than I’ve known my husband, and they’re all rabid, frothing Patriots fans.
[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
Yeah, he’s a dick. NFL coaches, by and large, are dicks. Tom Coughlin, before he had some kind of miracle turnaround this year, was a massive tool, who basically spent his entire life yelling at people to get off his lawn. Bill Parcells is arguably the most arrogant blowhard is history. Dennis Green famously erupted at the media when questioned. Why single out Bill Belichek.
[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry, what’s your point here? I didn’t say I liked Parcells or Green or Coughlin any more than I liked Belichek. Actually, I didn’t even mention other coaches, if I recall correctly. Belichek is a world-class prick by all accounts, full-stop. I have a hard time being happy and excited for world-class pricks even when great things happen for them, full-stop.
[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
Why? I’ve never seen the man make a quote that sounded smug or arrogant. He’s focused on the field. He keeps his cool, on the field and in the press, in spite of the fact that people who hate him for no articulable reason attack him as a man and a father. Where is the arrogance?
[/QUOTE]
It’s my personal opinion. That’s why I inserted the phrase “in my opinion” into my discussion of him. I don’t like him. *My impression * of him is that he’s an arrogant, smarmy waste of perfectly serviceable carbon. I don’t know a single damn thing about his paternity status or behavior. Why do I need a cite for why I dislike someone? I just do. For the record, I feel the same way about a number of other people - including other notable sports stars. I have lots of reasons for why I dislike him so intensely, but they don’t really matter, do they? As for why it’s germane to a discussion of why all the Pats hate, see the last sentance of my my comment regarding Coach Belichek immediately above. The quarterback and the coach, for good or ill, are the public faces and leaders of a team. It’s inevitable that people will base their opinions of the team at least in part on their opinions of the public faces of the team.
[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
Again, where did you see this attitude? The sportswriters attributed it to the players, but I defy you to produce quotes that suggested this attitude coming from any of the players.
Once again, I saw no indication of this. Every quote I heard coming from those players was one of excitement and appreciation, coupled with a healthy interest in focusing on the next game instead of the last one.
Cite?
Man, fuck that noise. When I was playing sports, if I got the sense that the other team was condescending to me and letting up, I’d have punched someone in the face for thinking I needed a pacifier. If I want you to stop scoring, I’ll damn well stop you from scoring. If I can’t stop you from scoring, that’s my problem. It’s telling that complaints of this nature come mostly from fans and writers - the actual players on the losing end of those games mostly didn’t complain, because they know it’s a ridiculous complaint.
Once more, for posterity: cite?
[/QUOTE]
I’ve grouped these for convenience, as my response to all is fundamentally the same. For specific instances, you’ll need to find yourself another girl. I’m a layperson - and gave my view on “why all the Pats haterz” as such. Other posters have kindly provided cites for me (to which I say, Thanks guys!) for most of those of my comments you object to. I’ll repeat, for posterity (to quote your snarky line above), I’m not a football fan. This means that I don’t spend much of my time watching ESPN or listening to sports radio or reading the sports section of any of my local papers. I hear about some of it, and see some of it, because I don’t live under a fucking rock. I hear a little more than a lot of folks because I do live with a certified sports fanatic.
And I can tell you the impression I formed of this year’s Patriots team based on what I saw and heard throughout the season is as I described in my post above. Keep in mind that there are almost certainly vastly more occasional or courtesy football fans* than there are devoted followers of the sport. One can enjoy something without being fanatically interested in it. Granted, I didn’t do extensive research into this year’s team - I probably can’t name more than a handful of players on it - or their motivations, opinions and personal life. I probably didn’t have more than an hour - hour and a half’s worth of exposure to interviews, media reports, etc. per week this year. I’m still entitled to an opinion. It’s even a reasonably informed one - not doing research isn’t the same as not having any freaking idea what’s going on in general. It’s not a random or capricious opinion. I’m not even the lone voice crying out in the wilderness on this one - note the kind Dopers who ponied up the cites you were searching for out of me.
The OP asked for the basis of the negative opinions folks are espousing towards the Patriots - I ponied up my opinion and the basis of it. Evidently you disagree. No need to be snarky with me about it, though.
*A courtesy fan of anything being someone who has a friend or loved one who’s vastly into something, and who doesn’t mind whatever that something is, and follows along a little bit because it’ll make their loved one happy and possibly because they find it mildly interesting (or are willing to suck up dealing with something they think is lame for the sake of their loved one).
People hate the Patriots simply because they were good this season. That’s all there is to it. Everyone loves to root for the underdog.
Has anyone seen this column from the WSJ?
Some choice quotes:
The article continues with the reminder of the unlikely rise of Tom Brady, a sixth round draft choice who spent his first season on the bench, who then somehow transformed himself into one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time.
Compare this to Eli Manning, a first-round draft pick golden boy, whose father arranged a trade because he didn’t like the first team that drafted him. Talk about arrogance!
I’ve been a Pats fan for over 15 years, since I moved to New England. (Five years earlier, I was living in the Chicago area, and cheered on the Bears as they stomped the Pats, who were not on my radar at the time.)
Anyway, besides the puffed-up “cheating” scandal, I’ve not seen why people have such vitriol against the Patriots, other than the expected shots at the team on top.
I’ve seen arrogant players and teams before. Hell the '85 Bears produced a music video prior to their Super Bowl appearance. A lot of people found that to be pretty arrogant.
The Patriots, on the other hand, including Bellichick and the players, have been nothing but humble the entire season. They’ve never guaranteed a win, and never gloated over victories. Even Moss, who been a real loudmouth in the past, kept to the party line. The whole team has been nothing but soft-spoken and humble. Heck, I found it jarring once when Kraft (the owner) spoke once after the end of the regular season–he was clearly thrilled, and this contrasted with the typically low-key humble response Bellichick had at the win.
I don’t think I’m blinded by being a fan, but I just haven’t seen the arrogance people like Airman Doors appear to be seeing.
P.S. I’ll add that the Giants clearly deserved the win in the Super Bowl. Their defense and pass rush were just incredible. After 18 straight wins this season by the Pats, they finally figured out how to defeat the Patriots.
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy]
On yet another hand, don’t forget that the Pats lost the AFC championship to the Colts last year through a big lead getting shot to hell. They led 21-3 at one point but got beaten 38-34. If I were a Patriots player or coach I’d never forget something like that, and never take a chance on it happening again.
[/QUOTE]
As someone who watched the Giants collapse a few years back, I certainly understand. Still, as morbo said, there comes a point late in the game where, while you don’t stop trying to score, you don’t push it with deep throws and runs on 4th and 1. You run the ball. You kick the field goal.
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee]
Actually, it would appear that all it took was for Tiki to retire. (Though Coughlin’s “come to Jesus” meeting with the owners this past offseason probably didn’t hurt.)
I don’t have a problem at all with you hating the coach. I loved Fassel, but I hated Handley as much as you. Hell, I hated Reeves. Not only do I not have a problem with you hating Fassel, but I would defend your right to hate him. I would argue that Johnnie Lynn was the black hole of suck, especially in San Francisco, but if you really want to lay the blame for a 39-38 loss on the offense, by all means blame Fassel. I would also point out that the league screwed the Giants out of that game, officially apologizing for the ref screw-up that cheated the Giants out of another game-winning FG attempt that was rightfully theirs.
What I have a big problem with is you attacking the 2000 team as “shitty” and “lucky.” That’s a fucking disgrace. They were the #1 seed, and they fucking annihilated the Vikings in the Conference Championship. There isn’t a single aspect of the 2000 team making the Superbowl that could possibly be chalked up to luck, and they were no shittier than any other team that got blown out in the Superbowl. ie: not shitty at all.
Did you really hate the team immediately after that 41-0 win? If so, then you’re a terrible, terrible fan. If you liked the team at that point, but the subsequent 2002 wildcard loss retroactively blinded you with hate-colored glasses, well, I can’t really blame you for it but I sure as hell won’t respect you for it either.
[/QUOTE]
I am not sure in what context I used shitty. I am probably guilty of exaggeration on that one. It was a good but dysfunctional team. I was shocked by the playoff run. I enjoyed the systematic destruction of the Vikings but I did not feel we had a chance in the Superbowl. With the Vikings win, my nightmare of 3 more years of Fassel was all but guaranteed.
Please note, that despite our lesser record and being the counted out underdog in every round this year. I believed the Giants could win each game and I picked them in each game. Dallas scared me far more than Green bay & Tampa. I knew we matched up well to them. The Pats, I knew we needed some greatness to win, I just had a feeling we would rise up. I just thought that Special Teams and the Running Game were going to be more involved.
So I love the Giants, I just did not love the Fassel Giants with Armstead and others fighting other members of the team. While I am at it, I will also mention that I thought Sehorn was the most overrated player in our history.
Jim
[QUOTE=robby]
I don’t think I’m blinded by being a fan, but I just haven’t seen the arrogance people like Airman Doors appear to be seeing.
[/QUOTE]
Whoa there, killer. I didn’t say anything about the fans in any of the four posts that I made, they were all about the zipperhead coach. But now that you mention it, the second post came because a Patriots fan was upset that I wasn’t riding Tom Brady’s knob all the way to undefeated because I am a Steelers fan and I remember when the Patriots jacked up the Steelers’ best season a few years ago, and the fourth came because I make judgments based upon public personal behavior. Because, as we all know, OJ is a hell of a guy if you just get to know him.
So, who’s being arrogant, again? It’s funny that it happened right before your eyes and you missed it, and what’s even funnier is that it was brought into specific relief because you called me out for something I never said.
Schadenfraude is biting you guys all week, isn’t it?
Just a slight hi-jack.
I can understand people disliking the Pats, we have a similar situation over here.
I’m a Manchester City fan and I hate Manchester United with a passion born out of envy.
They are succesful and have been over the years, we have, apart from late 60s early 70s, been in their shadow.
Apologies for hijack
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
Whoa there, killer. I didn’t say anything about the fans in any of the four posts that I made, they were all about the zipperhead coach. But now that you mention it, the second post came because a Patriots fan was upset that I wasn’t riding Tom Brady’s knob all the way to undefeated because I am a Steelers fan and I remember when the Patriots jacked up the Steelers’ best season a few years ago, and the fourth came because I make judgments based upon public personal behavior. Because, as we all know, OJ is a hell of a guy if you just get to know him.
So, who’s being arrogant, again? It’s funny that it happened right before your eyes and you missed it, and what’s even funnier is that it was brought into specific relief because you called me out for something I never said.
Schadenfraude is biting you guys all week, isn’t it?
[/QUOTE]
What on Earth are you talking about? I wasn’t talking about the fans. I was talking about the team (coach and players).
I never mentioned “the fans” at all in my post. Hell, it goes without saying that fans can be arrogant.
Oh, and the word you’re looking for is Schadenfreude. 
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Thank you, I do prefer friendly rivalry to hatred.
[/QUOTE]
It is OK to hate the Red Sox. And the Cowgirls and Iggles.
As for the Patriots - no hate. Of course I wanted to see them fall in the Superbowl, but rest assured if it was Cowgirls versus Patriots, I would have been rooting for the Pats (but if it was the Packers, I probably would have been rooting for Favre and Grant). In the AFC, I was rooting for the Colts, but only so long as the Giants were in it as I would have loved a Manning Bowl. Once the Colts fell, I didn’t care who made it. I was neither rooting for or against the Pats perfection quest except when it collided with the Giants.
I don’t hate the Pats, don’t hate Brady, don’t hate Bellichek, don’t hate Moss, etc. But I am damn happy they lost, and I enjoy gloating to every Pats fan who guaranteed a victory over the Giants.
[QUOTE=chowder]
Just a slight hi-jack.
I can understand people disliking the Pats, we have a similar situation over here.
I’m a Manchester City fan and I hate Manchester United with a passion born out of envy.
They are succesful and have been over the years, we have, apart from late 60s early 70s, been in their shadow.
Apologies for hijack
[/QUOTE]
Very similar situation.
The big difference is that fans of other teams over here don’t look at Shaun Goater and Niall Quinn and think, “that’ll be the man that finally wins us a Premiership”
During my high school days, I was actually a Patriots fan. I stopped rooting for them around 2004, when they started winning everything.
Why? For the same reason some basketball fans I know got tired of the Bulls in the mid '90s – invincible teams are boring. A good, entertaining game, of any sport, is played on two sides, both of whom have a realistic shot at winning. Watching a team go forth and stomp the living shit out of all who oppose them just doesn’t appeal to me. I like my team to have its ups and downs; the losses make the wins that much sweeter, and they remind you not to get cocky. I like it when “any given Sunday” is a reality.
My current NFL favorite is the Chargers, who’ve only in the past five years been in serious contention to win anything, and came damn close to taking the championship this year. If they go all the way next year, I’ll be cheering as loudly as anyone in SoCal. If they do it again in 2009, I’ll applaud. By 2010, I’ll be looking for something new.
I can’t blame the Patriots, though. Thus far, there has only ever been one pro sports team that has managed to alternate between kicking ass and sucking it on a regular enough basis for me, and that team is the one I’ve supported since Grandpa took me to see them when I was two years old. On that note: Let’s Go Mets!
As a loyal fan of Johan Santana, I’ll second that (and thank God he was traded to the NL).