Tenets? Tennets? I don’t know how to spell the darn word, but anyhow, I don’t mean “tenents” as in “tenents in an apartment bldg.” Okay?
rarosett– you said, “My understanding is that the key ingredient to get into Heaven is faith. Love and good deeds are results of that faith. Having knowledge of Jesus is irrelevant…”
IMHO love and good deeds do not occur only in people who have faith in a god or religion. Non-believers can and do feel love for their fellow humans. Non-believers can and do commit good deeds.
The differing attitudes of two of my Christian friends may amuse you: one, a Pentacostalist with mostly fundamentalist attitudes (save where sex is concerned) gives my girlfriend and me a complete pass for living together; she says it’s no sin, but can’t cite scripture in support of her position. Another, an uncommonly conservative Episcopalian, sometimes assures me dolefully that I’m going to be “cosmic dust,” but that he’ll pray for me on the off chance that I make it to Purgatory.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Podkayne *
**Many literalist Christians have told me that, even though Hell awaits those who do not beleive in Jesus, if you have never heard of Jesus, then after death you’re judged on whether you’re a good person, rather than whether you’ve embraced Jesus, and you can still get into heaven. Is there any biblical support for that idea?
Ok, Only one thing to say.
If they can't figure ou that there is a God (just look at the earth. who created that?) then They deserve to go to Hell anyways, I know that's kinda harsh but think about it.**Kaptain K wrote:
Ok, Only one thing to say.
If they can’t figure ou that there is a God (just look at the earth. who created that?) then They deserve to go to Hell anyways, I know that’s kinda harsh but think about it.**
So, anyone who is mentally defective or simply too busy scraping together food and shelter without time to consider the complexities and mysteries of life is automatically condemned? :rolleyes: Tell me again how this is a system set up by a merciful, forgiving, JUST God?
As to your (probably rhetorical) question about who created the earth; please dig up a good book on astronomy and planetology. You’ll find your answers there.
Uh, Kaptain K, you might consider Romans 2:1
First, To Freyr
I honestly agree, and have yet to find anything in the bible about People with disabilities.
and
Is anyone really too buisy to stop and think for a second? C’mon dude, That’s one major exageration.
The System is like this:
God Created man in HIS image
Man Denied God
God Showed Mercy and sent His own son to die for us (John 3:16)
We must accept Jesus into our own hearts and know that he is lord to go to heaven
If you haven’t, then the Bible says you’re going to hell.
What will a book on Planetology tell me? Probably nothing. or at least nothing that is true. are you honestly gonna tell me that you believe in the “Big bang” theory? Or evolution? Do you have any idea what the odds are in order for the elements to come together to create something as Complex and diverse as life? Literally Impossible. Exept through God.
And to Tomndebb
I’m not sure what you’re saying. I didn’t judge anyone (at least I didn’t mean it to sound that way). so I don’t understand. cause I agree that we’re all sinners, and we all need jesus, and anyone who hasn’t figured that out IS (according to God’s Word The Bible) going to hell.
No, Kaptain K, selected passages from the bible, misunderstood and misused, make it seem that anyone who hasn’t figured out we all need jesus IS going to hell. In fact, the Romans 2 clearly indicates that God wil judge on His terms and that we are being presumptious when we attempt to quote Him out of context to mean something else.
If you were not judging in your original post, you gave a very good imitation of it.
presumptuous
Kaptain K wrote:
<Insert obligatory link to http://www.talkorigins.org here>
**Kaptain K wrote:
I honestly agree, and have yet to find anything in the bible about People with disabilities.**
Actually, the Bible says quite a bit about people with disabilities. Generally you should treat them with kindness and help them out whenever possible.
and Is anyone really too buisy to stop and think for a second? C’mon dude, That’s one major exageration.
Yes, it’s something of an extreme case, but they do exist. Grinding poverty is very real for many people on the planet. They’re barely able to get enough food for one day and you’re asking them to engage in deep philosophical thoughts. Your statement;
If they can’t figure ou that there is a God (just look at the earth. who created that?) then They deserve to go to Hell anyways, I know that’s kinda harsh but think about it.
which implies that (the J/C/I) God has set up a system whereby the only way into heaven in thru Jesus. I point out there are people in the world who, by circumstances beyond their control (mental defect or extreme poverty) would be condemned to Hell under this system. This is terribly unfair and the actions of a Being (known around here) as the Divine Weasel, not the actions of a compassionate, loving, merciful God.
The System is like this:
God Created man in HIS image
Man Denied God
God Showed Mercy and sent His own son to die for us (John 3:16)
We must accept Jesus into our own hearts and know that he is lord to go to heaven
If you haven’t, then the Bible says you’re going to hell.
That’s ONE interpretation of the Christian philosopical system. There are many other interpretations. I suggest you talk with the other Christians on the board and learn about them. It can be very eye opening.
What will a book on Planetology tell me? Probably nothing. or at least nothing that is true. are you honestly gonna tell me that you believe in the “Big bang” theory? Or evolution? Do you have any idea what the odds are in order for the elements to come together to create something as Complex and diverse as life? Literally Impossible. Exept through God.
Yes, I believe that the “Big Bang” theory is the best explanation of how the Universe came into being. I believe that evolution is the best explanation of how we see the diversity of life on this planet. Yes, I have an idea of what the odds are for life to form out life-less components? DO YOU? Please read the link to TALKORIGINS that Tracer thoughtfully provided.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but he who does the will of my Father,” according to some guy that most Christian theologians, playing with the Pauline doctrines, seem to largely ignore in their calculations. :rolleyes:
According to anyone who’s thought through the issues and has a faith slightly beyond the cartoon-image wingety-angels-with-harps-vs.-little-red-guys-with-forked-tails-and-pitchforks imagery, Heaven constitutes being with God and Hell being without Him. Which means that one actively chooses one’s environment by choosing for or against being with Him.
Please note that this does not suggest eternal life with the Divine Weasel vs. eternal torture by demons as the two alternatives, as evangelical theology would imply. It means that you choose for life with God, as you know Him(/her/it/them), or the absence thereof. To anyone enamored of Him, like Aquinas or myself, everlasting life in His absence seems like eternal torment – and the idea that “Wow, I could have had a V-8” is supposed to be a part of the pain.
I despise manipulative tactics to misrepresent even a good thing in order to convince people to go for it. That emphatically includes the evangelical campaign to “save people from Hell.” That’s not how He works, and they know it – or ought to.
I know who created earth and everything. It’s Noun, by masturbating. His divine semen was the source of everything, including the other gods. Even the old egyptians, despite their lack of scientific knowledge were able to figure it out. Indeed it’s quite obvious, and everybody can figure it out easily by simply wondering wondering “who created that?”. Certainly nobody who didn’t understand it should be allowed to cross the sky with the sun god after his death but his sould should be devoured by demons. And rightly so.
No, it’s obvious that I created the Earth and everything. I’m just living here for the hell of it. Duh, anyone who could engage in consience thought would know that. I didn’t even have to have some stupid book written, people just know about me cuz im that great. If you don’t know, oh well, you’ll burn in hell forever.
I’m sorry, I don’t have time to look at everything, could u possibly gimme a more specific url as to where the specific info is?
thanx 
All righty, Kaptain K. You said you thought the odds against life arising spontaneously from lifelessness – what is technically called either biogenesis or abiogenesis, depending on whom you talk to – make it “literally impossible.” Right? Well, here’s a URL from the talk.origins archive website that addresses this very issue:
A friend of mine recently came very near to death. She is a dear sweet woman, with a kind and gentle hart. She is also at times querulous and short tempered. She is unable to understand the sentence: “Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and died on the cross as a sacrifice to atone for your sin.” She has a remarkable set of characteristics, which she will repeat for you if you ask her if she knows Jesus. These characteristics include what sort of car He drives, and His favorite movies. Generally he is seventeen, and wears a green coat, and brown pants, although his outfit does change from time to time.
She told me that while she was at the hospital, the Nice Man came and told her that he would come for her, and take her to be with her parents. He said she could not go now, but she should not worry, He would not forget her. She was very comforted by the words the Nice Man spoke. Now her health has improved, and she is no longer any more likely to die than I am. Whether you believe her story, or not, consider this: The Nice Man has acted in precisely the way that the Lord said He would act. My friend has neither intellectual theology, nor any coherent faith in Jesus. She does love the Nice Man, though.
I told her, when she was very ill, if she did see the Nice Man, tell him thanks, for me, for loving my friend.
It’s not a trick. It’s not a club. There is no secret word. No one on earth know the state of your soul, nor can you judge that for another. You can’t fool Him about your heart, and what you say means only what you mean.
Do yourself a favor. If you find Jesus just to hard to believe in, then don’t bother with belief. Love every soul you encounter in your life as if that by itself was the purpose for your being. If it turns out I was wrong, you would have lived a life devoted to love itself. How bad could that be?
Tris
“The Way of Heaven is to benefit others and not to injure.” ~ Lao-tzu ~
No one can judge who makes it into Heaven and who doesn’t, nor should we try to conjure up our own list of qualifications. If you are not a Christian, that is your decision. However, why you decide to reject Christianity is more than likely a result of the way Christianity was presented to you (usually Christians are portrayed as ignorant and stubborn, by their own actions). Therefore, the decision to reject Christianity was a result of poor presentation on the part of “witnesses,” which I’d guess gets figured in at the final tally. In other words, the fact that you’re not a Christian is partly my fault, because I make Christianity look so bad. So there’s really no way to say who gets what reward in the end, it’s all speculation and all too often becomes part of people’s belief systems. The bottom line is it’s God’s choice, and we cannot begin to accurately guess the intricacies of His criteria.
Sorry if I brought this thread back when it was moribund, but a recent thread on Jesus like this strikes me as an appropriate candidate for resurrection. 
It occurred to me recently that perhaps we’re not looking at this “judge” thing right at all. The seventh book of the Bible is called “Judges” – but it’s not about legal opinions handed down by the likes of Eliezer ben Scalia and Levi ben Rehnquist. Rather, it’s the story of those who served as advocates and defenders of the Children of Israel.
Let me draw an extended metaphor on God as judge by recalling to you all a man you have all individually seen. He too was called Judge and Father and his given name means “One like God.” His life was the ministering of compassion and advocacy for those in need and at risk, going forth with those who risked their lives for others to bring God’s grace to them and those they worked to rescue. He identified with an often-despised minority, not for personal gratification but because no less than the truth would do for him. The last act of his life was bringing comfort and God’s grace to a fallen fireman on September 11.
That pictures to me how God is a judge. For whatever reasons, He did not give us Paradise but a world where every act has an equal and opposite reaction, and this is true morally as well as physically. And He is there as our comforter and advocate, by our side as we make our way through that world and learn from it. The tyrant on the throne is outmoded; the Judge who lives and dies as one of us will never be.
Polycarp wrote:
Huh? “Let me back into the World Trade Center tower! I’ve got to give that fireman his last rites!” CRAAAASH! 