… And a dog-owner at the off-leash park yells at the mother and her three children and orders them to all leave.
What say ye, O Dopers? Who was in the right, and who was in the wrong? Both? Start typing your answers, and then down below I’ll give you more details. But I’d like to know people’s gut responses first, to just the simplest and most basic facts in the most neutral way as possible.
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In no particular order, some additional details:
The husband of said mother informs me that the city told them, “You’re taxpayers, you have as much right to be in a park as any other city resident. If [dog owner] does this again, call the cops.”
The mother told me that the dog owner in question said, “My dog doesn’t like kids,” to which she responded, “Then don’t bring your dog to the dog park.”
Part of me feels that if the mother and kids had brought a dog with them, nobody would have looked at them askance.
Part of me feels that a dog park should not be treated as a free zoo.
Part of me feels that if a dog/kid conflict of personalities is imminent (i.e. the dog “doesn’t like kids”) the dog has more right to be in a dog park than a child with no dog.
The three children in question are all under the age of four years.
I don’t know how to parse all these conflicting pieces of information. So I’m crowdsourcing it here, because if there’s one thing Dopers can do, it’s come to a consensus. (Especially when it comes to anything involving animals and/or children."
In the court of common sense, mom is a stupid ass, and if I were a dog-owner, I’d leave every time she showed up, and try to get the other dog owners to do the same. See how long she wants to stay and let her kids frolic in an empty shit-filled park with no dogs.
Every dog park should prominently display a sign that says:
“NO dogs without people, NO people without dogs.”
The city can make rules for it’s parks. In this case whether it has or not is an open question. Any dog park without such a rule is asking for trouble.
Public parks are open to the public. During open hours, anyone who would like to come in is welcome, as long as they are behaving within the bounds of the law.
It is a dog owners responsibility to maintain control of their animal in public places. Having your dog off leash is a fun perk when it is appropriate, but even in an dog park there may be times when it isn’t appropriate.
The mom is legally in the right, but she’s also foolish to take a bunch of small children to a park where there are strange, unleashed dogs running around.
I agree with this. She has the right to be there, but it’s a jerkish thing to do to her kids and the dogs. Are they going to chase the dogs to try to play? Sooner or later one of her kids will grab one and yank on something, and then there wil be trouble.
What the mom is doing is not only legal but perfectly reasonable. If the dogs are a danger when off leash, then they shouldn’t be off-leash anywhere, even in a dog park. If the family also had a dog, then nobody would blink an eye at them being in a dog park: How is their presence any less acceptable without the dog?
Define ‘dog park’ for this particular park. That can mean a LOT of different things. For instance, is that all it is? No playground, no walking/biking trails, etc.?
If it’s just some open space where people can walk their dogs somewhere semi-nice, and maybe a couple of benches to sit down on when you and your dog get tired of walking, but no other amenities, then that’s one thing. But if it’s more of a mixed-use facility, then that’s another.
Dogs can be a danger to kids that little without biting them, Dogs running can easily knock a little kid over. And the kids can also act inappropriately to the dogs. If the kids were from a house with dogs, they’d probably know how to behave with them.
Every dog park I’ve ever went to was enclosed. The one near us even has areas for small dogs and big dogs. The while point is to let your dog off the leash to play with other dogs without having to worry about them going awol on you - and to keep people who might object to off-leash dogs out.
A dog park is specifically designed so that the owner does not have to maintain direct control of the dog. Any dog that is aggressive to other dogs or to people should be leashed and removed, of course, but you are missing the point of the park.
Maybe I should have said “control” rather than “direct control.” If you cannot prevent your dog from acting aggressive towards whatever happens to be in the park at the time- be it a fence post, dog or human- then it doesn’t get to be off leash. And if something enters the area that may provoke aggression, it’s the owners job to make sure that doesn’t happen, not the targets job to leave.
A dog park is a park for dogs and dog owners. There might be benches but it’s not really a good place for walking because a) dog poop and b) rowdy packs of unleashed dogs. The whole point of a dog park is to have a safe place for dogs to exercise and socialize off leash. There are dozens of parks in our city, including state and national parks, where children can go and play and where dogs are legally required to be on leashes. Bringing the children to a dog park and then expecting the dogs to be put on leashes just ruins it for the purpose for which it was built.
It’s like people who insist in walking abreast on a bike trail or cyclist who insist on biking on hiking trails. Just because it’s technical legal doesn’t absolve them for being a jerk about.
IMHO it depends on how closely the parents are in control of the kids. If they are not in immediate control of the kid, ie, able to intervene instantly if they kid reaches out to grab a dog’s tail, then the parents are in the wrong. Otherwise, if kids are in a stroller or holding hands, then I guess that is fine but I don’t see the point, they can watch the dogs from right outside the enclosed area. Even as a lone, able-bodied adult I wouldn’t hang out inside the enclosed area without a (permit-holding) dog. If everyone who was in a park on a nice sunny day were to hang out in the enclosed area then it’s no longer a space for the dogs. Again, I can watch the doggies outside from the fence, and have done so on many occasions.
And I agree with Meredith, just because a space is in a public park doesn’t mean it’s open to small children. You wouldn’t let your kid wonder into someone else’s tennis match, or into a skate board park, because those are spaces reserved for people to enjoy a specific activity that can’t do in just any random public space.
Nobody expects all dogs to be kept on leashes when kids are in the park. But “My dog doesn’t like class of people” is not a reason to demand that kids/black people/men/lawyers/whatever leave a public park.
I think this is a good analogy to taking your toddlers into an off-leash dog park; why would you even want multiple toddlers in an area filled with questionably-controlled dogs? That sounds like a terrible idea, with no good outcome for anyone involved.
I’m also going to go with technically legal, but just don’t.
If mother’s little kids in the dog park aren’t getting along just fine with all the doggies, then mother should keep her kids leashed.
As for myself: I’d rather there be more dogs and fewer people in public places. I hang out the local dog park sometimes because dogs are usually fun to be around and I don’t have one myself.
It sounds like mum is taking the kids (under 4!!) to the park to play with the dogs?
Legal, moral or otherwise - that doesn’t sound like a very good idea for kids or dogs.
Young kids are unpredictable. Dogs are unpredictable.
If something happens, even something relatively innocuous, it’s not going to end well for the dog. Particularly for a kid under 4, for whom even the smallest reaction or snarl from a dog because of a pulled tail or whatever can cause problems.
If mum wants the kids to play with dogs - she needs to make arrangements from within her own circle of friends - not impose herself at the dogpark.
I’m with the dog-owner - I’m sure he didn’t bring his dog to the park to be a free plaything for her kids.
The “Don’t bring dogs to the dog park” is a bad response, for a few reasons.
I’m sure that’s precisely why the owner took the dog to the dog park. A place where his otherwise well-behaved dog could socialize with other dogs and play and explore without encountering little kids, specifically little kids who do not know how to behave around dogs.
Also, a lot of dogs who are otherwise well-behaved do not know how to act around small kids. It is not their fault (really, would you put your own little kid as training for strange dogs?), and many owners won’t know this is the case until something happens.
Even at a dog park, it is bad etiquette to just go to any dog and play with it. You don’t pet any strange dog unless you’ve gotten permission from the owner or the dog itself presents itself to you. I wonder if that is part of what the mom was doing, letting the kids play around with the dogs without asking permission. Jerkish and dangerous.