Ours is 35 acres, with ponds and trails. Fenced in and gated with “airlocks” so your dog can’t get through the fence when someone else is coming through without you. It isn’t uncommon to see someone’s dog come around a bend, then see them appear a minute or more later. There are two “playgrounds” - big open spaces where people tend to leave balls and frisbees and jugs of water - on a nice Saturday afternoon, those playgrounds are full of very excited dogs and there are dogs fetching balls out of the ponds.
That sounds awesome.
I highly doubt that was the case - if the dog had been fine up to that point with all the other dogs and people in the park, it is far more likely that these three kids were not standing still. And I know from experience that telling a parent the truth about the lack of manners displayed by their children doesn’t end well, so I’ll use the “he doesn’t like kids” excuse to keep them from torturing my dog.
A shelter rescue is not a “better yet” choice for three little kids.
We have park police here, tho no dog parks.
My take on this is that Mommy didn’t provide all the facts to the OP. She probably just turned the kids loose in the nice fenced in area with all of those fuzzy play toys, which resulted in the man yelling at her to leave. We do a lot of our obedience and agility training in local parks, and we have even had parents leave little kids “with” us while they went off to do whatever. I have “with” in quotes because we only discover that we are now babysitting when we ask the kid(s) where Mommy is!
We have a retired greyhound. She is about 50 lbs and at one point in her racing career, was clocked going 55 mph. She is one of the fastest couch potatoes in the world. As with all working greyhounds, she came to us so well trained that she pees on command. I have no worries about how she would react to a child, or to any other person or strange dogs.
However, when I take her to our local, fenced, dog park and allow her to run, she runs like…well, like it was what she was born to do. I’m a full grown woman, almost 120 lbs and I once got in our dog’s way when she was running. She tried to avoid me by zigging, but I thought she was going to zag, so stepped the wrong way and ended up on the ground with the breath knocked out of me.
I was just bruised, an impact like that could do some serious damage to a toddler.
Our dog park has a big dog side and a little dog side. There are signs saying that dogs must be taller/shorter than the sign to enter, and another sign that shows height limits for humans.
Non-dog owning people bring their toddlers into the big dog side all the time. We always run them out, but we are usually more polite.
I would hate that, don’t just assume that because I’m at a dog park with a dog, that it’s okay to leave your larvae there unattended, watching your brats is not my job, I don’t like kids, and I would resent the implication that I would have no problem watching them
If a family emergency came up, I’d have no problem leaving, not my kids, not my problem, I would however, call the local authorities and report them as unattended, possibly abandoned before leaving
If I just got bored and ready to leave, Cooper and I would get in the car, call the cops, then leave when they arrive to deal with the kids and self centered negligent parents
I am not a babysitter
In my local Forest Preserve, all dogs MUST be leashed. Needless to say, there are always a few who don’t give a fuck, and IMPOSE ON ME the burden of not “causing” the dog to react badly. I’ve never been bitten, but just having a German Shepherd run at me full tilt (even when it wound up just running by me) was a really frightening experience.
In a dog park, it’s for the dogs, and I would enthusiastically support a law forbidding children there or even adults without dogs. I would never enter such a park. Furthermore, if I were outside such a park (very unlikely in any case) and I saw that law being violated, I’d give those people a seriously not gentle reminder of it.
It’s best to offer a strange dog your hand to sniff palm up. Humans offer food with hands palm up and hit with hands palm down, and dogs know it. Still, the important part is accepting the dog’s wishes after the sniffing, which you’re precisely correct about.
I’ve got a co-worker who got rammed by a dog at our local dog park, and the impact tore his ACL. That might actually be more likely for an adult, whose larger mass means that they’re more likely to get one body part mangled than a child who might get thrown out of the way entirely, but it should illustrate the principle. Dog parks are not safe zones for anyone.
And a dog’s behavior around other dogs is not always a good predictor of its behavior around people. I used to walk a friend’s giant Great Pyrenees, and while I’d trust her with a toddler or a cat, I’d regularly have to haul her off a snarling, growling charge at another dog. She meant business. I used to own a dog who was likewise great with children and cats, but hated bearded men until he’d gotten to know them. I wouldn’t take either to the park. A parent shouldn’t trust the judgement of dog owners in whether to take kids to the park, though; there’s some dumb dog owners out there and your kid’s unmangled fingers aren’t worth risking.
The mom acted inappropriately. Given that there are plenty of other parks and playgrounds that aren’t dog parks, it’s pretty clear that she took the kids there to be entertained by the dogs there, not the park itself. My dog isn’t at the dog park to provide entertainment to kids, it’s there to play, exercise, and meet other dogs. It’s not the responsibility of all of the dog owners to anticipate and expect this (and train their dog accordingly), any more than the dog owner should be able to take their dog to the playground to socialize it with all the children there whether the parents like it or not. It exposes the dog owners to liability if the kids get hurt, and limits use of the park for its intended purpose.
Any dog, in play, can be a hazard to a child that age even if the dog shows zero aggression. The kid could easily be knocked over by a dog of any size if it’s running at full speed. The dog parks I’ve been to have dogs running all over the place, wrestling, playing tug-of-war with sticks – not aggressive dogs, but they’re playing, not watching out for small kids. I’ve seen kids in the 10-12 range get rammed into hard; heck, even adults who aren’t paying attention.
The dog park is one of the very few places where owners can exercise their dogs properly, as well as socialize them with other dogs. It isn’t an appropriate place for small children. The whole world doesn’t need to be sanitized for little kids, and the idea that any dog that could cause harm to a child should be leashed is laughable. Aggression, yes absolutely, but just through boisterous play in a designated dog park? Should we allow toddlers to wander through the tennis courts and basketball courts in public parks when games are going on? Should little children be permitted to set out toys and play in the middle of busy bike paths, or to swim in front of the boat loading dock? Public parks can have areas designated for a particular use.
My local dog park forbids small children, and anyone under 18 needs a parent present. I think this should be the standard. If your kid wants to see dogs, or you want to teach them how to handle dogs, seek out an appropriate venue and get the permission of the owner. My nieces are under 1 year and are exposed to dogs of other family members, but in controlled, calm circumstances. When the dogs need time to play, they go in a different place than the little ones.
Excellent summary fluiddruid
I’d also like to add that offleash parks are rare. Out of curiosity I checked the parks and rec website for my small suburban city and here is their blurb on what’s available:
With over 70 playgrounds, 2 skateboard parks, 37 soccer fields, 18 baseball diamonds, 2 splash pads, 9 baseketball courts, 16 tennis courts, 1 multi-use court and a cricket pitch, there is always something to do around Town! Add to that 2 off leash parks, one of which is a shared use conservation area and I would definitely feel free to tell the parent she was in the wrong place.
The rules of our offleash areas don’t prohibit children but they do specify the requirement to have them under control at all times. Three kids, two hands I’m betting that wasn’t true.
Awesome - but obviously an inappropriate place for young children who outnumber the adults. In that environment, its far more important that all your children are leashed than the dogs are. Even without the dogs, three children four and under with woods and ponds sounds like a nightmare (but then, I had two and one I lost regularly in places like that while the younger distracted me by falling down).
You are making two assumptions here:
(1) Why the mom was there. It may be the case she took her kids to be entertained by the dogs; it may be the case that she was simply walking through the area. OP doesn’t say. You can’t conclude she was acting inappropriately by assuming she was acting inappropriately - that is known as “begging the question”.
(2) What kind of dog park this is. From the examples I’ve posted upthread, it is clear they come in different varieties. You don’t even know whether it is fenced or not, and even fenced parks come in different varieties - for example, in High Park here in Toronto there is a fenced dog park, but it is not a “dog run” like some here have bveen describing - it is simply an enclosed, fenced part of a regular multi-use park. This difference is reflected in the rules - in the case of High Park, the onus is clearly on dog owners to “respect other park users”, while in the “dog run” type parks, kids are excluded or subject to restrictions - thus the onus is on parents.
According to the OP, the city (allegedly) said it was OK to have kids there, leading to the reasonable conclusion it was more likely a fenced part of a multi-use park, rather than a “dog run”, as the latter tend to officially exclude or restrict children. But we don’t know, and so firm conclusions are premature.
Ok, I don’t know why, exactly, they were there – I got the sense that it was an outing like going to a playground – but I can tell you that around here, a dog park means a fenced area specifically for dogs to be allowed off-leash. They have a big dog and a small dog area, separate from each other. They are not adjacent to other parks and cannot possibly be mistaken for one. The are water fountains specifically at dog height, benches for owners, some trees and trash cans and the occasional forgotten tennis ball.
Does that help clarify?
Thanks! I don’t know why some people chose to think you meant “general park in which kids and old people and everyone goes, and also some people walking dogs,” because you’d just call that a park.
Do you know if there are any posted ordinances about going there without dogs, or with little kids? The complaint ot the official may not have been worded entirely accurately, and the official may not have responded entirely accurately either.
Because some dog parks are in fact fenced areas of multi-use parks, fenced off so dogs can go off-leash. As I’ve said before, dog parks vary widely in type, from “off leash areas” (which may be fenced or unfenced), through dedicated “dog runs”, which are sometimes seperated into little dog and big dog runs – which we now hear is likely the case.
The rules for such places vary widely as well, with some quite specifically stating “no little children allowed”, and others quite specifically stating “dog owners must respect other users”. All of which is posted upthread.
If the OP knows the name of this park, or even states what city it is in, the issue could presumably be resolved quickly by consulting the rules, if they are posted online–as many are.
Look, of course an owner shouldn’t bring a dog that might be aggressive to children to a dog park.
But some owners are dumb. Which means it’s insanely fucking stupid to take a bunch of toddlers in to a dog park.
I run (ran last night, actually) on a hiking trail par tof which goes through an off-lash dog park. It’s very clearly marked at the exits that dogs must be on their leash.
Still, owners will wander out with their dogs off a leash. Most of the time, they’re ok, but the last straw for me happened a few weeks ago when I encountered a guy with two dogs. Of course, he assured me they were friendly. Then one proceeded to grown and prevent me from crossing a bridge, and both of them chased took off after me when I got by.
After aiming an unsuccessful kick at the one that presented the greatest threat, the guy got an earful.
When I’m IN the park, I yield to dogs. I will stop running, walk by, stand there while the dog passes, whatever. It’s a dog park.
Outside of the park, I will choke your asshole of a dog out if it threatens me and it’s not on a leash.
But a fenced-off area of a public park is still different to it just being a general public park.
Of course it is. However, it is also different from a ‘dog run’ type park designed for dogs only.
For the purposes of this analysis, the main difference is that the former is a general-use park in which dogs may go off-leash, and the latter is dedicated to dog use only. So it makes sense that in the former kids are allowed and the onus is on dog owners to prevent interfering with other users, while in the latter kids are usually not allowed, or if they are, the onus is on parents to keep them from interfering with the use of the park by dogs.
The whole problem in this debate so far has been that one side has something like the former in mind, while the other side, the latter. Both could be, and are, called “dog parks” - see for example the rules for High Park I posted. It is called a “leash free dog park” and it is really a bit of urban forest with some trails, like the rest of the park:
You can see in the last pic that a road runs through it, and there is an ice-cream stand.
In short, you can’t know who is in the right without knowing which type of park it is. If someone told a parent walking through High Park dog park to remove themselves, they would clearly be in the wrong; on the other hand, parents bringing kids to a ‘dog run’ would more likely be in the wrong [though I’m not crazy about people ‘yelling’ at each other in any event].
Excellent point, Malthus. They were either here, or something like it; in other words, a park that is *specifically *designed for dogs to be allowed off-leash. It’s not a park where dogs happen to be allowed; it’s a park FOR DOGS (and their owners) and so is more like the latter in your post.
Does that help?
From the Fort Woof park rules:
No worries. You never said “direct control” anyway. 