percentages of failing students

So the other day in lecture, a professor stated that they normally lose about 10% of the kids who first enroll into the school. She said it as a matter of fact, and that it just simply happens. I can believe it. I think it might be somewhat commonplace with a lot of universities as well. I’m just curious as to what the cause of this is. I can understand from a student perspective, that a million different things could go wrong and would cause you to drop out of school.

But what about the universities standpoint. Would it be seen as the university doing something “wrong” if a certain percentage of the students didn’t fail?

FYI I am a freshman student enrolled in a community college nursing school.

They don’t necessarily fail. Some people drop out even though they do fine in school, they have some family obligation, need to work, etc… Every school has an attrition rate. I have a feeling in certain fields they were quite high. I recall that people used to say about law school that the professors would say on day 1, look to your left, look to your right, next year one of those people you just looked at will be gone. now that schools are cash cows, schools don’t have an incentive to fail people out, as they can’t get tuition if you aren’t attending

I think 33% may be a little high, but the schools do seem to expect a certain amount of people not to return, for various reasons. As I recall my first days at law school, the rumour that made its way through our class was that “ten percent of us won’t be here next year.” When we started second year of law school, we did indeed find that ten percent of the class did not return.

I seem to recall my law school class being about 270 or so on day 1 of the 1L year, and by graduation there were 239. A handful transferred as well.

I knew someone was in law school in France and she said the attrition rate was something like 80%.

The Chronice of Higher Education has nice site that talks all about college completion stats and why it’s somewhat difficult to give an exact answer. The really short version is that having 90% of the students in a program graduate on time is phenomenal, and puts your program well ahead of many elite universities.

Edit: Based on the figures in the first table, out of the freshman who entered college in fall 2004, only about 23.6% graduated within four years. That figure is hiding a lot of variation across universities, so treat it as you would any other average.

Same undergrad as you – I heard 1/3 bandied about by a few profs, but just counting the bums in seats, it looked like under a third dropped. It depended on the course – after the Christmas exams, a lot more folks dropped out of calculus than dropped out of English. I was stuck in a three person room in a dorm, so it was nice when the other two never returned after Christmas – nice guys but partied too much.

For law school, I don’t recall anyone dropping out other than a fellow who went nuts and flunked out, but since everone were keeners to the nth degree, I would have suprised if anyone had dropped out.

The goal is to give the best education possible to the best students possible, not to fail students.

Students fail because they do not have the funds, they do not have the ability, they do not have the work ethic, they fall ill or their family falls ill, they get a really good job offer or life experience opportunity, the teachers are not up to snuff, there are other more enticing programs, etc. What schools do not do is try to ensure failue of a certain percentage of students.

My friends that are deans and department heads are all quite concerned about student success.

From what those of us who returned were able to find out (some of us kept in touch with them), we did have a few dropouts. In one case, the former student mentioned that “I realized that law school wasn’t for me; I really don’t want to be a lawyer,” which is a valid reason. In another case, the student was trying to juggle a full-time job with law school, realized he was doing pretty well financially at the full-time job and had a lot of potential for raises and promotions there, and quit the school.

And yet another student did not return for financial reasons–he found school to be a lot more expensive than expected, so he left to spend some time working and saving. (He did have a career prior to school, so he just stepped back into that.) I understand from contacts at the school that he did eventually return a couple of years later.

My nursing class lost almost 50%*, and that was not considered unusual or worrisome.

Now, my school really *did *try to winnow people out. The reason for this was so that they could keep their NCLEX pass rate very high, much higher than the state average. Flunk the borderline ones before they can graduate, and they can’t graduate and fail the NCLEX, the test you need to pass to get your license.

*Number based on my highly scientific observation of drawing the last number in the class to register both first semester and last. First semester, I was last at number 180-something. Last semester, I was last at number 90-something.

Perhaps I’m just cynical, but it looks more to me like many schools are interested in collecting as much tuition money as possible.

This is the reason I am asking this question. Of course the faculty have an interest in student success but they have an image to uphold as well. If they had consistent pass rates of 100% year after year, would that reflect on the school as being “too easy?”

Barring some professional school exceptions, no, it usually doesn’t work that way. A higher flunk ratio compared to other schools is an indication of either the school being bad at admissions (garbage in, garbage drop out), or is being bad in its programs or some other aspect that significantly affects students.

Producing high end graduates requires that the school first attract and then teach high end students. Of two equally good schools, to which would a high end student risk spending years of effort and tens of thousands of dollar? One that graduates its students who make the grade, or one that arbitrarily does not graduate a significant number of its students despite their making the grade?

Where it gets interesting is when (as recently) the economy has led to fewer high end students applying for admission in the first place. I had an interesting discussion a few months ago with a law prof who sits on her school’s admissions committee. Applications had tanked, so her school and another school in her city (both of them on the boundary of first and second tier), were faced with either facing major funds cuts, or lowering the standards for admission. Once school chose major funds cuts, while the other chose lowering the standards. The crux of the issue was that a few years down the road there would be lower quality graduates if the admissions standards were lowered, thus lessening the reputation of the school, which in the long terms would make it even more difficult to attract high end students. As it turned out, the first tier school decided to suck up the cuts and not ease the admissions requirements, figuring that their reputation in the long term would suffer if they lowered their admissions standards. The second tier law school decided to lower its admission standards out of great concern that they would fold up shop if they had significantly fewer students, so for them it was better to survive with the expectation of a lessened reputation than to not survive. Note that the concept of deliberately failing a certain percentage of students was not part of either school’s equation – bear in mind that the more students are flunked out, the less the schools will receive in donations from graduates in future years.

Now recall the first phrase of my post: “Barring some professional school exceptions . . . .” This is where it can get a little scary. A professional body, not a professional school, decides what it will take for a person to be admitted into that profession. A professional school’s reputation will very much be earned or lost based on the percentage of its graduates who are admitted by the professional body into the profession. For top tier professional schools, this is not a problem, for the quality of their applicants and the quality of their programs ensure that the quality of their graduates will be sufficient to make it into the profession. Lesser schools, however, may start with students who will never be good enough to make it into the profession. These students are wasting time and money. It will hurt a professional school to have a low ratio of students being admitted into a profession, so there is a tendancy to cull the deadwood prior to graduation, so that the school can say that a very high percentage of its graduates were admitted into the profession. What is not said is that when compared to better schools, more of its students dropped out before graduating. Note, however, that even then, the flunking is not arbitrary, for the school simply teaches to a standard necessary to prepare the students for the profession, and if a student is not up to snuff, then as far as flunking out goes, “If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly.”

Finally, there are diploma mills that will hand a degree to anyone who is willing to pay. Their extremely poor reputations are earned not by their high pass ratio, but rather by their graduating idiots who could no more pass professional exams for entry into a profession than they could fly to the moon.

Also some programs are a lot more difficult than others. Going in as premed or an engineer is much, much, much more difficult than getting a liberal arts degree. I’m sorry, but engineering classes are way way way harder than some gender issues class. I’ve taken them all, and sciences are so much more demanding and much harder work, where I could easily see someone struggling or even failing in an engineering degree whereas tehy would breeze by in a liberal arts program.