Perceptions of the Military

[running_coach]

@MrDibble

I’m OK with saying I loathe the entire US military, about as much as I loathe any military (which is lots), and even I have never called the entire service “psychopathic criminals” - “all morally blameworthy”, sure, but not mentally ill.

But I’m not “America” [sic] so I don’t think I count.

@Ibn_Warraq

Why do you feel that way?

On a serious note, do you also abhor all policemen around the world regardless of their country.

Certainly police have also been quite brutal and repressive. In fact, from what I gather, in conflicts where both the police and the military were involved, I.E. Northern Ireland and South Africa, the police in the form of RUC and their South African counterparts were vastly more brutal than their military counterparts.

MrDibble has self-identified as an anarchist.

[Snarky_Kong]

@iiandyiiii

I think it’s likely that military people were more likely than non-military people to respond to your poll. Just like if you put a poll that said “Have you been to China”, people who had traveled to China would be more likely respond than people who hadn’t.

Oddly enough, I suspect the opposite was true with my goat fucker poll.

[Alessan]

@runner pat

MrDibble has self-identified as an anarchist.

More importantly, he describes himself as an absolute pacifist.

(Although he still likes action movies).

[iiandyiiii]

@Snarky_Kong

Oddly enough, I suspect the opposite was true with my goat fucker poll.

I built this wall, but do they call me iiandyiiii the builder? No. I designed that bridge over there, but do they call me iiandyiiii the engineer? No…

[Czarcasm]

@iiandyiiii

I think it’s likely that military people were more likely than non-military people to respond to your poll. Just like if you put a poll that said “Have you been to China”, people who had traveled to China would be more likely respond than people who hadn’t.

I thought so too, but while the people that posted responses matches that expectation, poll-wise the people that didn’t serve outnumbered the people that did/do by a good number, and that’s the poll information I referred to before.

[Czarcasm]

@iiandyiiii

I think it’s likely that military people were more likely than non-military people to respond to your poll. Just like if you put a poll that said “Have you been to China”, people who had traveled to China would be more likely respond than people who hadn’t.

Respond to the thread-yes. Respond to the poll-no.

[iiandyiiii]

@Czarcasm

I thought so too, but while the people that posted responses matches that expectation, poll-wise the people that didn’t serve outnumbered the people that did/do by a good number, and that’s the poll information I referred to before.

You might be right. I responded, but I don’t know if I would have had I not served in the military. But there’s no way to know without further investigation; internet polling is notoriously unreliable. A better random methodology might be to send messages to random dopers (say, select 50 dopers at random that are currently active) and ask them if they served in the military- that might be a better representative sample then, essentially, just polling people who choose to respond to a “have you served in the military” poll.

[MrDibble]

@Ibn_Warraq

Why do you feel that way?

It’s no secret (apparently :)) that I’m a pacifist and an anarchist. Also, I grew up in the worst sort of police state, where the military was an extension of a corrupt junta. Suffice to say - I’ve got my reasons.

On a serious note, do you also abhor all policemen around the world regardless of their country.

Naah, just the paramilitary ones. I’ve got no problem with cops investigating murders and recovering stolen property. It’s when they become part of the enforcement arm of the government-of-the-day that I get antsy. Consider that I grew up in a time and place where the police felt well within their job description to hide in crates on the back of a truck and open fire with R4s at unarmed protesting schoolkids.

Certainly police have also been quite brutal and repressive. In fact, from what I gather, in conflicts where both the police and the military were involved, I.E. Northern Ireland and South Africa, the police in the form of RUC and their South African counterparts were vastly more brutal than their military counterparts.

It varies. But the police units involved were often not regular police units - more like secret police.

[Slithy_Tove]

Perceptions are one thing, but reality is another. When you get out and look for a job, you’re only more appreciated by a small increment than non-vets. Yes, you get points when appling for government jobs, but only an idiot would limit his job search there.

For every boss who is him or herself a veteran and believes that you deserve a break or probably come with good discipline pre-pounded into you, there are dozens non-vet bosses who think people go into the military because they lacked initiative and so threw themselves into the arms of Uncle Sam as glorified welfare queens. Don’t expect your sparkly DD214 to blind them: accept that they might be thinking “do I want some cog fresh out of a giant, ineffcient machine here in my organization?”

Why did you join in the first place?

1. 9/11 drew a clear line between good and evil, and I wanted to stop evil
2. I couldn’t find a job.
3. I wanted to get away from the gans in the ghetto/barrio

Everybody is gong to pat you on the back and outwardly assume it was #1, but inwardly suspect #2 or, based on melanin content, #3.

Those majority of non-vet bosses are looking for square pegs to fit into square holes. This is why the USAF can be more picky than the army. I’m sorry to report that “served with pride” is just slightly better than “calls his mother at least once a week” on a resume.

[Kearsen]

@BobLibDem

I’d probably be more prone to give the troops a pass if I thought the wars were just and in the best interest of the nation and the world. I once supported the Afghan war but have changed my mind- in my opinion we should have just lobbed some missiles at the Talban and called it a day.

When you slaughter entire families of civilians or descrate the corpses of enemies, you lose my support in a hurry. Perhaps you personally did not commit these atrocities, but plenty of your brethren did. We aren’t paying you to “kill people”, we’re paying you to attack military targets.

solosam, you say you served in Iraq and Afghanistan. What was your motivation for joining? To seek vengeance for 9/11? To be honored and glorified on your return? What were your goals and did you achieve them?

I honestly have no fucking words for you. By your words you are a sad miserable piece of shit of a person who can sit back and use words like us/them in regards to the very people defending your liberty.

[Kearsen]

You want my perception of the military?

It has to be done by someone and I’m glad it doesn’t have to be me.

[iiandyiiii]

@Kearsen

I honestly have no fucking words for you. By your words you are a sad miserable piece of shit of a person who can sit back and use words like us/them in regards to the very people defending your liberty.

Luckily the “soldiers = babykillers” mantra is an extreme minority opinion, even among liberals. Most people (and most liberals) recognize that it’s very possible to oppose the particular military policy while still honoring and supporting those who choose to serve.

[Human_Action]

@iiandyiiii

Luckily the “soldiers = babykillers” mantra is an extreme minority opinion, even among liberals. Most people (and most liberals) recognize that it’s very possible to oppose the particular military policy while still honoring and supporting those who choose to serve.

Agreed.

Most people also recognize that judging someone by the actions of others, ‘brethren’ or otherwise, is morally wrong, and thus do not condemn all soldiers for the atrocities of a few.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

I think the de rigueur military-thanking we do at the moment is a bit out of hand, but I don’t have a problem with it. Certainly I’m grateful; as Mike Birbiglia puts it, I’m thankful to the troops because otherwise I’d be the troops.

In any event, my attitude is a million miles from disliking the military.

@Slithy_Tove

Perceptions are one thing, but reality is another. When you get out and look for a job, you’re only more appreciated by a small increment than non-vets. Yes, you get points when appling for government jobs, but only an idiot would limit his job search there.

There are quite a few states that offer tax breaks and other incentives to employers for hiring veterans, for what it’s worth. Having said that, I think the DoD has ruthlessly sold a bill of bullshit goods to impressionable youth about all the employers who are dying to hire them after they complete their military commitments.

I have a friend who was an intelligence officer in the Navy Reserve and got a huge salary from Grumman or somesuch more or less the second he signed his discharge. I have a bunch of other friends whose military service didn’t entitle them to a damn thing except college money, which they wisely used.

[Ravenman]

@RickJay

Again, I’d like some links or cites.

“The troops” are in general given a hell of a lot of credit, even by people who opposed a particular war. The ratio of “honoring” the troops to open contempt for them is probably a thousand to one. Even on the SDMB, a hundred to one.

Bottom line: we actually agree. Look at my first post in this thread. I said that the military is among the most respected professions in this country, and those who criticize the troops are outside of the mainstream. It’s not worth a service member getting upset about how a minority of Americans don’t support them.

(My comments that you quoted were in response to a narrow question of whether there is only one anti-military person on this board or not; my view on that narrow question has little to do with the general subject at hand.)

[tagos]

@Kearsen

I honestly have no fucking words for you. By your words you are a sad miserable piece of shit of a person who can sit back and use words like us/them in regards to the very people defending your liberty.

The troops in Afhanistan and the troops who invaded Iraq are not doing one single thing to ‘defend my liberty’.

Every time a whole bunch of civilians are killed, every time it’s considered okay to kill a bunch of people to get a couple of alleged ‘bad guys’, every time basically more angry people are created ‘over there’ and more people are incited to plot revenge ‘over here’ my liberty is jeopardised.

My liberty is a helluva lot more jeopardised by our continued support of the Number One Jihad State on the planet: Saudi Arabia.

The country who takes our oil money and uses it to push the most extreme form of Islam into young minds all over the world.

[Kearsen]

@tagos

The troops in Afhanistan and the troops who invaded Iraq are not doing one single thing to ‘defend my liberty’.

Every time a whole bunch of civilians are killed, every time it’s considered okay to kill a bunch of people to get a couple of alleged ‘bad guys’, every time basically more angry people are created ‘over there’ and more people are incited to plot revenge ‘over here’ my liberty is jeopardised.

My liberty is a helluva lot more jeopardised by our continued support of the Number One Jihad State on the planet: Saudi Arabia.

The country who takes our oil money and uses it to push the most extreme form of Islam into young minds all over the world.

The troops, whom you lay the blame for all of your posting woes, have created nothing, have made zero public policy, have done nothing except what they have been tasked to do, while you sit in the safety of your cubicle posting on a message board about how ‘they’ don’t do shit the right way.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Kearsen

I honestly have no fucking words for you. By your words you are a sad miserable piece of shit of a person who can sit back and use words like us/them in regards to the very people defending your liberty.

I disagree just as strongly as you do, but please don’t trot out the “defending our liberty” trope. Military action in Iraq and Afghanistan does as much to defend our liberty as a Laker Girls cheer routine.

[Kearsen]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I disagree just as strongly as you do, but please don’t trot out the “defending our liberty” trope. Military action in Iraq and Afghanistan does as much to defend our liberty as a Laker Girls cheer routine.

Change the reasoning words as you see fit. The “defense of liberty” wasn’t meant to be hyperbole or any tug at your heart strings, I just didn’t have a way to say “someone has to do it and I’m glad it isn’t me”

They don’t make policy but the people yelling at them in their shrill voices seem to think so.

[tagos]

@Kearsen

The troops, whom you lay the blame for all of your posting woes, have created nothing, have made zero public policy, have done nothing except what they have been tasked to do, while you sit in the safety of your cubicle posting on a message board about how ‘they’ don’t do shit the right way.

I said nothing about troops. Just using my amazing ability to read words on a page, quotes them and respond to them rather than to imaginary words I made up in my head.

It’s a totally awesome skill, I know. I constantly amaze myself.

As I’ve said many times, I don’t care if the Afghans kill each other. They’ll be back at at each others throats, fighting to steal all the aid money, fighting to sell all the arms to terrorists and fighting to control the drugs trade the second our backs are turned. Let them kill each other, let them oppress the crap out of each other, let them starve. I simply don’t care. The place is so far beyond all help it isn’t funny.

All our blood and treasure has been completely wasted.