Personal Questions about Atheism

Great Debates
21

nahtanoj:
>That, or I will play cornet for an all-girl carbaret.
In New Orleans, right?

dreamer:
I’m actually a strong agnostic, stably balanced between atheism and Norse polytheism (Norse myths probably aren’t literally true, but they’re such cool stories), but I will answer your questions anyway, because agnostics and atheists so often get lumped in the same category anyway, and because I think I might find it amusing to do so, and because, heck, I’m new here, I might as well help y’all get to know me.

>1. What is “The Meaning of Life” to you?
Well, apart from the obligatory jokes about Monty Python, 42, and the dictionary… hm… five tons of flax. Seriously, though, yeah, it’s whatever you make of it. The universe has no inherent meaning; it’s just a bunch of indivisible particles falling perpetually through the void, a la Democritus. By observing the universe we overlay a sort of a perception matrix on top of it, masking the meaningless dance of particles with a disguise that we can understand. Did that make any sense?

>2. What is your purpose for being on this Earth?
That depends…
If you’re asking why I was “put” here–because a particular spermatozoon from my dad fertilized a particular ovum from my mom, and the resulting zygote managed to successfully develop to maturity, or some approximation thereof.
If, on the other hand, you’re asking what purpose I work towards, what I devote my life to–trying to be happy, and trying to help others be happy, whatever that may mean.

>3. Is there a Hero figure or anyone in your life that you have learned from or
>whom you look up to?
Oh, yeah, lots, both historical and mythical and modern. Far too many to name here. A sampling: Prometheus (a Greek god who gave fire to humanity even though he knew he would be punished for it), Archimedes (an ancient Greek genius whose clever inventions defended an island from Roman invasion for years, and whom I consider one of the first martyrs for the cause of mathematics), the Buddha and Jesus (a couple of early pacifist philosophers), King and Ghandi (a couple of more recent pacifist philosophers), everybody that has ever left earth, “even for an hour,” just about everybody in the education business… the list goes on and on.

>4. What do you say to your children when they ask “Mommy, Daddy? Who is God?”
Well, I don’t have kids, but I might someday (“You can’t kill me; think of my children!” “You don’t have any children.” “But I might someday!”), so I’ll answer. Hm… I think I’d give an honest and (to the best of my ability) unbiased description of all the popular viewpoints and a few unpopular ones in as simple and understandable terms as I could, and tell the child that he/she is free to believe as he/she chooses. The idea of theological beliefs being imposed on a child before he/she is mentally mature enough to make such decisions really disturbs me (this is the main reason I’m against such things as infant baptism and classroom recitation of the pledge of allegiance). In the wise words of a poster in my mom’s elementary school classroom, “A child’s mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.”

>5. When a loved one dies or a tragedy happens in your life - What are the
>steps you take to deal with it.
I have been fortunate enough not to have encountered this event yet, but I have thought about it an awful lot, and I think that if somebody died that I loved very much, I would mourn for a time, then settle my affairs, pack up a few things, and start wandering, not so much as an attempt to escape from reality but as a way to be alone for a while and have some time to think. I’d come back eventually, though; my roots are stronger than my wings.

>6. What do you believe happens to you when you die?
You go directly to hell and are punished for all eternity in ways more horrible than you could possibly imagined, no matter how good you were in life, no matter what you believed. EVERYBODY goes to the Place of Pain.
Nah, that’s not really what I believe, of course, but a religion that endorsed that view would probably be a great way of discouraging suicide and life-endangering behavior. :slight_smile:
Seriously, though, I really don’t know for sure. I don’t think anybody can: as Lawrence of Arabia said in the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, nobody’s come back to tell us. I suspect that once you’re dead, that’s it, oblivion, nothingness, curtains down, show’s over, the end. What interests me, though, is whether the person, soul, consciousness, self, ego, whatever you call it is destroyed when the body dies, or when the brain decays. There’s a subtle but potentially very important difference. When I die I’d kinda like to have my brain preserved, in the vain hope/fantasy that the latter might be true and I might someday be resurrected. It may sound foolish, but ten thousand years from now, Barnabas Mk. II will be laughing at you all! Mwahahahaha! :wink:

Anyway. I think that covers all your questions.
Any questions? Any answers? ::sings:: Any rags, any bones, any bottles today? Any rags?

22

1. I don’t think there is any great Meaning. Life is. Simple and wondrous as that.
2. My purpose is to be happy and kind and enjoy life.
3. I have people I admire and whom I learned from, but no Heroes with a capital ‘H’.
4. It would depend on the age and maturity of the child and why he was asking.
5. Death–you grieve, you celebrate, you remember. Other tragedies–you put them in perspective and do what you can.
6. You rot. Unless you’re cremated. Either way, you just plain cease to exist.

23

We’ll take donated egg cells, fertilize them in vitro, use Bockanovsky’s Process to create 96 embryos from every donated egg cell*, and incubate them in giant bottles. At which point, “Mother” and “Father” will start to become swear words.

[sub]*) Of course, Bockanovsky’s Process reduces the mental level of each offspring to Gamma or lower, but hey, you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs.[/sub]

24

I’ll agree with most of what’s been posted. I’ll add that life having no inherent meaning is not a sad thing; it’s incredibly liberating. I have no special purpose (except in the Steve Martin sense–remember The Jerk?), but I find value in many things: teaching, helping others in need, being fair and kind and honest, to name a few. These things are encouraged by religion sometimes, but I value these things genuinely, not because I’ve been told to. I find that these things make the world a better place. Making the world a better place appeals to me, but I don’t see it as the meaning of life.

I won’t be having more children, but I have a 23-year old daughter from an earlier marriage, and she knows that I don’t believe in God. I don’t proclaim my atheism to most children, simply because I don’t want to interfere with the teachings of their parents, however much I may disagree with them. Like Barnabas_Truman, I’m disturbed by “theological beliefs being imposed on a child before he/she is mentally mature enough to make such decisions,” but it isn’t my place to raise other people’s children.

I don’t have any heroes, but I respect kind, intelligent people. Death of loved ones makes me sad, and I move on.

25

1. What is “The Meaning of Life” to you?
As most of the posters before me have said, there is no Meaning, per se. You provide your own

2. What is your purpose for being on this Earth?
Personally, I want everyone who comes into contact with me to be better off for having known me. A lofty goal, to be sure, but I like to think I’m doing well.

3. Is there a Hero figure or anyone in your life that you have learned from or whom you look up to?
I fail to understand how this is a question related to atheism. There are plenty of people who have taught me things, as I suspect is true with everyone. From my parents and (some) school teachers, to Thomas Jefferson, Socrates, Jesus, James Hetfield, and Anton LaVey. I suppose I most admire the dissenters, for having the intestinal fortitude (if you will) to hold strongly to their convictions in the face of public scorn.

4. What do you say to your children when they ask "Mommy, Daddy? Who is God?"
My wife is a devout Lutheran who teaches Sunday School. She gives the classic christian description of the all-knowing and all-merciful God. I, on the other hand, tell the children I don’t believe such a being exists. They will discover what they believe in their own time. I am content that they know by my example that it’s possible to not believe in the existence God.

5. When a loved one dies or a tragedy happens in your life - What are the steps you take to deal with it.
I’ll let you know when it happens.

**6. What do you believe happens to you when you die? **
Well, since most everyone else has given the classic “Nothing” or “I don’t know” answers, I’ll say something different. Some one else has said it more elegantly than I, I’m sure, but here goes anyway:

The matter that makes up your body has been around since the creation of the universe, in one form or another. From the hydrogen of the early universe, converted into heavier elements by the first stars, eventually into carbon, calcium, etc. You are part of everything that has come before and everything that will come after.

Even as I type this, parts of you are dying, and will become part of something else, while others are being replaced with matter that once made up some one or something other than yourself.

I suppose the question you meant is “What happens to your unique consciousness when you die?” Consciousness is an accident of genetics and the matter in your brain. When you die, the matter that makes up your genetic structure will decay, but will soon be incorporated into something else.

There are simply different states of being, some of which are more aware of themselves than others. Your personal consciousness will not persist beyond death; it can’t. But, while your individual consciousness may fade, you will persist in one form or another for all eternity, just as you have persisited for all history.

Hope this helps,

26

I haven’t met the right woman yet.
Well I have, but I was too young to notice how special she was. (sob!)

Hopefully there’ll be another one…

As a teacher I understand kids somewhat, and I’m sure I would enjoy raising them.

27

My answers are pretty much in line with the other atheists’ . . .

1. What is “The Meaning of Life” to you?
Whoever said there has to be a “meaning?”

2. What is your purpose for being on this Earth?
Likewise, no one has any “purpose” here except for self-imposed ones.

3. Is there a Hero figure or anyone in your life that you have learned from or whom you look up to?
Sure. Several people; some historical, some living.

4. What do you say to your children when they ask "Mommy, Daddy? Who is God?"
No kinds. but I would say, “Gods were invented by people who needed something to look up to and create rules on their lives.”

5. When a loved one dies or a tragedy happens in your life - What are the steps you take to deal with it.
Too myriad a subject to go into here. But “religion” has never played any role.

6. What do you believe happens to you when you die?
Like Ethel Barrymore said, “That’s all there is—there isn’t any more.”

28

I too agree with most of the other posts:

  1. No meaning to life except the drive to live, which means food and shelter. Some may say the drive to procreate is part of life but I think we humans have gotten around that.
  2. No purpose except to do what you have to do to have adequate food and shelter.
  3. Not really.
  4. No kids. No plans for kids. Why? Because I’m selfish, don’t want to change my lifestyle, the world is overpopulated, and it’s a shitty world to bring a child into. I have thought I should have kids just to try to balance out the replicating morons but there’s no guarantee my kid wouldn’t be one, too. I also have thought many times that kids are the only immortality I’m likely to have, unless I can get that Great Novel finished, but that’s not a good enough reason to have them.
  5. I cry a lot, I (selfish again) want everyone to know how terrible this thing is that has happened and share in my grief, I see a psychiatrist, and I take drugs. Then after time has passed I try to discover what I have learned from the tragedy and make the appropriate adjustments.
  6. When you die, you cease to exist, you decompose (if you’re not cremated or mummified), and your atoms are returned to the earth to be recycled. I’ve always thought it would be kind of neat to be mummified and have some archaeologist dig me up and make guesses about my life. Of course, once I’m dead, I won’t be around to care what happens to my body.
29

dreamer, pardon my turning the tables on you, but what are you hoping to find? As someone above pointed out, atheists are a diverse bunch.

In answer to some your questions:

I have a child. As he is young I don’t tell him anything about God; the subject has not come up. I teach him how important it is to do what is right: to be honest with himself and with others, and to be considerate of other people’s feelings. I don’t feel the need to teach my son not to believe in God. I believe he will make that decision for himself.

Is it your opinion, I wonder, that one can’t be an ethical person–even an extraordinarily ethical person–without believing in god?

May I suggest that you take a look at the Autobiography of John Stuart Mill? He was raised as an atheist and remained an atheist throughout his life. At one point he wrote in a letter to a religious contemporary that if he could believe in God that he would; but he didn’t and couldn’t. As an exceptionally ethical individual he turned to philosophy and politics in order to express his beliefs about the human condition: as it was, and as he believed it should be. Although times have changed a lot since he died in the 1880s, and Mill’s works manifest some of the blind spots of his time and place, most of his writings are still read today. He was one of very few men in the nineteenth century to believe that women should enjoy full legal and political rights; and he believed that inequality between husbands and wives was a principal source of human unhappiness and social turmoil. He also believed in individual liberty: in the importance of allowing people to develop fully and freely.

I believe that he led a very meaningful life although, after the premature death of his wife, he often felt very lonely and alienated. Mill is, I should say, one of my heroes. I have many others.

Thanks probably to a love of learning things, and an appreciation of human diversity I don’t feel at all spiritually impoverished by my atheism (secular humanism is probably a more apt term). I love music, really good movies, my family and friends, trees, the shape of the Chrysler building, and a great many books, especially history, philosophy and literature. I think it’s really cool that the Internet allows me to say these things to you even though I have never seen you probably never will. These are all things worth living for and marvelling at.

30

dreamer, from seeing you in the past, I have respect for you, but I have to say that I find this a bit silly.
I’m an atheist, but I’ll be the first to admit that some religions may provide more satisfying answers to many of the questions you raise than atheism does. But that’s not the point.

The point is that those “satisfying answers” mandate belief in an entity or entities that I simply have no evidence to believe exists.
You can’t do it backwards, IMO. You can’t believe in a deity simply to have answers to the questions you pose; you have to believe in the deity first.

Sua

31

I, too, agree with most of what has been said, but must add:

  1. Heroes Number 1 and 2 for me are Al Einstien and Carl Sagan. Al for the absolutely counter-intuitive revelations about the nature of the universe, and Carl for explaining its wonders in such an interesting way.

  2. With three grown daughters, (who I must say turned out alright, in spite of me) maybe I can comment on what to say to little ones. My wife’s family was aghast at my atheism when they found out, but did not interfere. The girls would ask various questions, which I answered as honestly as I could: God is a myth that many people believe in - sort of a Santa Claus for adults. I let them make their own choices, and they investigated Christianity, but found it lacking. One is even married to a apparently devout Catholic, but there is so much obvious hypocrisy that we don’t talk religion to avoid problems. I really made a concious effort to teach the girls to have respect for others and themselves as the most important thing in life.

  3. What happens after you die? Where were you 100 years ago? That’s where you’ll be 100 years from now… unless you are Ted Williams; then you’ll be hundreds of clones playing baseball!

32

Sorry to quote such a lengthy passage, but that was very well spoke, indeed!

As the song goes, “We are stardust, we are golden…”

<minor hijack> I do wish bodies could still be buried with nothing more than a shroud and a wooden coffin, so that they would decompose and return to the earth faster.</minor hijack>

Since I’ve valiantly struggled to resist indulging my silly side with this thread so far, I just have to:
**1.**There is no Meaning of Life, however, the Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything is 42, derived at from calculating 6x9.
**2.**Eat, drink, learn, create, fuck, sleep.
**3.**WWKD? = What Would Kai Do? <zing, thwack>
**4.**Stick an apple in the little bugger’s mouth whilst you’re trussing him to the spit. That’ll larn him sum respec’!
**5.**Currently, I dust Mama’s urn off on a regular basis.
6.“The dead do not care.”

Okay, back to the regularly scheduled serious discussion–and no disrespect meant, dreamer.

33

I guess the main reason I ask is because I wonder why if you believe there is no greater purpose, no judgement, and in the end your nothingness, then why try to lead a good life? I can’t say what I would do personally if I was an atheist, but if there were no consequences (after death), I’m not sure I would try to live with the morals I have now.

I also was curious to know what you would say to your kids. If you would offer them free will for their choice.

I wanted to know how you deal with death and tragedy because when I’ve had to deal with it, I go to God for comfort and peace. So I was curious what you do.

Obvioulsy your all familiar with Monty Python, so that answers my question there :smiley:

That’s just my opinion. If you think my questions are silly, don’t bother answering them. But thanks to those who did anyway.

34

I’m always amazed by this line of reasoning when I hear it. Are you theists all so debased inside?

I mean, isn’t it enough to be a good person because doing so makes life and relationships with other people easier and more rewarding than if you lived as a murderous, cheating, lying, SOB?

35

So, you’re only a good person, do right by others and exist as a functioning, beneficial member of society because if you don’t, you might “get in trouble” after you die? Huh.

I try to be the above because I care about my fellow humans and their lives. But, different strokes, I guess. I don’t need some omnipotent parent telling me what is right. Maybe you do.

36

Because, in general, a good life is more happy, comfortable, and fulfilling than a bad life?

You don’t have to believe in eternal punishment or reward to see that if you follow the law, behave kindly toward your fellow man, and find some sort of rewarding occupation, you’ll be better off than if you spend your life lying, cheating, stealing, and indulging bodily pleasures.

After all, if this life is all you get, why would you want to waste it on cheap thrills, dodging the wrath of others, suffering the physical consequences of your lifestyle, and feeling guilty? (There are people who don’t feel guilty when they do the wrong thing, you know . . . we don’t call them atheists, though . . . we call the psychopaths.)

If God spoke to you and said “Hey, dreamer, it’s all just been a big joke. All those commandments, I just made those up to torture you poor saps. But I’ve had My laffs, and now you can do whatever you want, and I’ll still let you into Heaven. And, by the way, I’m God, so I can’t lie, so you can take every Word I’ve said as absolutely true.”

What immoral acts would you commit? I’m genuinely curious. Are you thinking that you might not follow the example of Jesus as you ought, or are you thinking, like, grand larceny?

What possible alternative is there? “Junior, you’re NOT believing in God, and that’s final!”

Atheists, cocky as we are, tend to think that we’ve come to the only reasonable conclusion. So why would we have to brainwash the kid into being an atheist? I figure that if you give a kid as much information as he wants about any religion in the world, and talk with him openly and honestly about his thoughts and feelings, then of course he’s going to turn out an atheist. 'Course, if he didn’t, I’d love him anyway, the little scamp.

This all pretains, of course, only to Podkayne’s Hypothetical Offspring, since Poddy is another one Not Doing Her Part to breed the Atheist Master Race. See reasons cited above by other posters: I like having plenty of extra money and free time, I don’t particularly like kids, I don’t think I’d have the patience to be a good mother, and, here’s your special bonus biology reason: I don’t relish the thought of going through 9 months of pregnancy followed by labor, delivery and breastfeeding.

I go to friends and family for comfort, and try to be philosphical about the whole thing. Yes, people die, and we can and should grieve for them, but we must try to remember their contributions to the world, and the happiness they brought in life. It’s not the perfect solution . . . but then again, I think I remember persons of faith crying a funerals, too, so apparently we cannot derive perfect comfort from God, either.

37

Everyone else has addressed the other points much better than I could, but I’d like to answer the question about what happens when I die.

I don’t think it matters. I often think that the world would be a much better place if people focused on what’s happening while they live instead of hoping for “something better” after they die. I can’t help but wonder what the world would be like if we worked toward “something better” in the here-and-now.

38

dreamer, by indulging my silly side, I truly meant no disrespect to you and I’m sorry if I came across that way. :frowning:

As to, “I guess the main reason I ask is because I wonder why if you believe there is no greater purpose, no judgement, and in the end your nothingness, then why try to lead a good life? I can’t say what I would do personally if I was an atheist, but if there were no consequences (after death), I’m not sure I would try to live with the morals I have now.”

The acts that I consider wrong are those that hurt someone else. Why should I want to hurt somebody? I don’t. There are acts that your Bible considers wrong (mostly sexual ones, but I also have no intention of walking 20 feet outside the city to bury my feces) that I don’t. What I and my partner do in bed isn’t anybody’s business as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody else–and it doesn’t.

There are also acts the Bible condones, such as incest and forcing the victim of a rape to marry her rapists, that I think are abhorrent because they harm someone.

39

Popular quotation already; it’s a nicely succint expression of a viewpoint that many non-theists find frankly baffling, worrying, and horribly sad.

Baffling: that people so firmly believe that observable consequences right here, right now, in this world, so large and full of wonder, aren’t enough to distinguish between leading a good life, and leading a life as a human monster.

Worrying: that, should the suffering inherent in life strike those that profess that belief in such a way to destroy that belief, that they’d actually choose to become a monster wasting good human skin. After all, what would it matter if they lost their faith? Might as well start raping and eating people! There’s quite enough people causing misery in the world, so it’s worrying that a very large percentage of people truly believe that the natural human condition is only a hair’s breadth away from monstrosity without being “saved”.

Sad: well, yeah. Because there’s more than enough suffering in the world. And the narrative that without faith and being “saved” people are just an arbitrary choice away from being beasts only adds to it.

People are social animals; individually clever, headstrong, deeply emotional in all our cognition. They are not naturally evil, and not naturally monsters. They simply aren’t.

I consider it a moral crime to teach children that they are.

If you truly need your particular literalist religious beliefs to be good, and for anyone who truly needs that, for whom being human and being alive isn’t more than enough to make striving for goodness worth it, with any eschatology being merely long-term bonuses–then I lodge a prayer with any Authority that may be listening that they never, ever, lose that faith–and fulfill their own prophecies.

But you know what? I don’t think the people who narrate that belief at themselves would become monsters if they lost faith. They would–shocking, shocking!–merely remain human, muddling along as best they could, right here, right now, in this very breath and every one thereafter until this life’s finite supply runs out.

Peace.

40

“Life” has no intrisic meaning, but that’s not to say that your own life cannot be meaningful to you.

My purpose: I’m working on trying to be a loving person who is good to others. It’s a challenge, and I don’t always succeed at it, but I’m trying. And trying to enjoy my life, of course.

Lot’s of 'em.

I don’t have kids yet, so I haven’t developed a contingency plan for every conceivable question they might ask. If I have kids, I think I would prefer to let them draw their own conclusions about religion.

It seems to me that emotional support from friends and family would be the most helpful thing in that case. That reminds me of something that happened recently: I attended a memorial service for a friend. He was not a really close friend, and I hadn’t seen him in years, but I liked him a lot and thought he was a good person. I thought the service was nice - friends and family got up and talked about how he had touched their lives, and shared stories about him. But then they spent almost as much time talking about Jesus and reading Bible verses. I’m sure that’s comforting to a lot of people, but to me it just seemed extraneous and really detracted from remembering and honoring my friend.

You stop being alive? If you’re asking if I think I’m gonna grow wings and go sit on a cloud, the answer is no.

Really? So the only reason you try to be a good person is so you don’t get poked with a pitchfork after you die? Not to offend, but that seems like a rather self-serving attitude.