I don’t want to hijack, but since the thread seems to be moving in this direction of its own accord…
This seems to suggest that conventional morality- in the case of theists anyway- is motivated largely by fear of consequences. Do you believe this? Despite the fact that I am an aetheist, I choose to conduct myself in a decent and moral fashion. You might even say I follow The Golden Rule. There are many things I could do that would not necessarily bring about substancial consequences but would benefit me-- I choose not to do these things because they don’t seem right.
To think that fear is the strongest motivating factor for the existence of religion is intriguing indeed. By “fear” I mean a specific fear of consequence rather than the simple-fear-of/need-to-rationalize that which is unknown-- that which I believe to be the roots of religion.)
Suppose I coerce a man at gunpoint into professing eternal devotion to Jesus. I propose the consequence, he conceeds. Is his devotion true? Does it have meaning?
I would answer the OP, but I really have nothing new to add. I would like to point out that I am impressed by your open-mindedness. From your posts, I get the impression that you do honestly want to understand us aetheist. Some day, I hope to understand theist.
I think the replies to the question about having morals without a fear of judgment or after-death consequences just shows that morals came first; ideas about what gods would think are the right things to do arose from people’s knowledge about the right things to do. I think it’s been said before: society’s mores arose so that people can live peacefully together, and the bible and “teachings” are just the ennumeration and storytelling to get the points learned across to future generations, that is, the basic human moral tenets that arose when two or three pre-humans decided to band together for mutual benefit. So, rather than fear of consequences, morality springs from what is best for the group (which, in Biblical times, might include burying your feces 20 ft. outside the city walls).
It’s interesting that of the atheists who’ve posted that they plan not to have kids, the reasons they gave were all for what dreamer would call “moral” reasons.
My oldest is now five years. My wife is a cafeteria-christian (she picks and chooses which religious ideas she likes), and she is teaching him about god and Jesus and dragging us all to church two or three times a year. I accept this.
Whenever he asks about god, I let my wife handle it. If she’s not there, I give vague answers. One thing that I’m doing is trying to teach him critical thinking early. I think appreciating magic and trying some of it is a good start. I tell him all the time that anytime he sees something that looks like magic, someone is trying to trick him. Then when we talk about god, I slip in references to magic.
Parents will love their kids however they turn out, but I think I’ll be a little disappointed if he is an adult christian.
I’m an athiest in the sense that I don’t believe in any gods, despite having a little spiritual belief. The reason I don’t believe in any gods is that there just isn’t any reasonable evidence to support any one of them over the other 2500 or so.
*Originally posted by dreamer * 1. What is “The Meaning of Life” to you?
Monty Python jokes and the like aside, I don’t think there is one. Life seem pretty likely to be a matter of chance. In that sense, we’re very lucky to be here, but that doesn’t mean there’s some ‘meaning’ behind it, no more than there is meaning when I flip a penny and have it land heads-up.
2. What is your purpose for being on this Earth?
Don’t know if I have one. If I do, I certainly don’t know it. But seeing as the reason I’m here is simply because my parents had sex, I don’t think there has to be some purpose.
3. Is there a Hero figure or anyone in your life that you have learned from or whom you look up to?
No ‘hero’ figure, really, but I definatly look up to my parents, even if we have our disagreements at times. There are also certain historical figures that certainly have lessons that can be learned from, but none that I would consider heros. Then there are the people that are heros because of their actions, risking themselves to help others, which is always something admirable.
4. What do you say to your children when they ask "Mommy, Daddy? Who is God?"
I doubt I’m ever going to have kids. If I ever had to explain it, I’d probably explain how many people believe in various supernatural beings, maybe give a brief run-down of some of the more popular beliefs, though making sure to show how many others there are, too.
5. When a loved one dies or a tragedy happens in your life - What are the steps you take to deal with it.
I get on with life. I miss them, all of them, and I feel a little sad whenever I think about them… But it’s over, now. Letting a tragedy damage the rest of your life only makes it worse, when there are such better things you could be doing.
6. What do you believe happens to you when you die?
Um… I die. Pretty simple I doubt there’s anything beyond that, but I do hold a little hope for reincarnation (Some of my very little spiritual beliefs poking through here). However, while that “seems” right somehow, there’s nothing to support it, so I generally don’t consider the chances too high.
I guess the main reason I ask is because I wonder why if you believe there is no greater purpose, no judgement, and in the end your nothingness, then why try to lead a good life? I can’t say what I would do personally if I was an atheist, but if there were no consequences (after death), I’m not sure I would try to live with the morals I have now.
Empathy, compasion… Hope? The world would be a much better place if everyone would “lead a good life,” so it would be best if I did my bit to help, I think. And I think someone who does this of their own accord, without persuasion by someone else, are the most admirable people, much more than those who do so simply for fear of punishment. Those are the people I admire.
I’ve always liked this quote on the subject, since it seems very close to what I think:
“A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.” – Albert Einstein
What is “The Meaning of Life” to you?
Meaning of Life huh? NEver gave it much thought.
What is your purpose for being on this Earth?
Hmmm, make love, eat ice cream, watch Buffy, and constantly seek knowledge. I want to know everything.
Is there a Hero figure or anyone in your life that you have learned from or whom you look up to?
A hero figure? I can’t think of any one specifically. Like with the first question, I never gave it much thought.
What do you say to your children when they ask “Mommy, Daddy? Who is God?”
I don’t have kids. Probably never will, though my husband wants them, so who knows? If I do though, I plan on teaching them about all the major wold mythologies, so I would respond “Which God?” and go from there.
When a loved one dies or a tragedy happens in your life - What are the steps you take to deal with it.
Maybe anger, grief, pain, tears, and ultimately acceptance. I know it’s hard to let people go and think “I’ll never see them again” but to quote my favorite show, “you got to go on living so that one of us is living.”
What do you believe happens to you when you die? shrug Nothing, something, I odn’t know. I don’t care either. I’m living my life the way I want to live, doing the things I believe to be right. I want to do as much as I can in my short life-span, and I’m not going to spend any time worrying about what may happen. Carpe diem and all that.
I lead a moral life because I have no reason or desire not to. The consequences for leading an immoral life is immediate–I don’t need to wait until the Sky Daddy gets a hold of me. If I cheat on my husband, he’ll leave me. I love him and I don’t want that to happen. If I lie, my word will mean nothing, and I’ll lose my integrity. If I steal, I may be thrown in jail and lose everything I have due to greed. Also, I wouldn’t want someone to hurt me purposely, so I extend everybody else the same courtesy.
There are always consequences for your actions here on Earth. I lead a moral life because I’ve weighed the benefits against the consequences and decided it’s not worth it to be an immoral jerk.
—I guess the main reason I ask is because I wonder why if you believe there is no greater purpose, no judgement, and in the end your nothingness, then why try to lead a good life?—
Dreamer, think about it this way: if ANY finite portion of life isn’t good enough, then how could an infinate life be any better? Add up all the empty portions and you would be just as empty no matter what. 0 + 0 will always equal 0 no matter how long you continue to add nothing to nothing. So eternal life CANNOT magically make a meaningless life meaningful just because it goes on forever (endless 0!).
Life can only be meaningful if each and every portion of it has meaning to you (who else?). The fact that it will one day end doesn’t make it LESS meaningful or “all for nothing in the end” because that makes no sense: once something is meaningful, that’s that. Life is meaningful and worthwhile to me, and that’s that. The fact that it ends only makes it more special, not less.
I’d also note that there is nothing about not believing in a god that precludes belief in an afterlife. Many Buddhists are atheists: yet believe that we are re-incarnated, or exist forever as part of an eternal life’s consciousness. And even for non-religious atheists: if one feels no need to posit a god in the face of one life, why would they need to posit a god to explain an additional life? The only reason the god explanation seems inevitable is because people lack imagination, and always want to see a human-like face behind everything (because that is simply how humans are: personal).
I have to say, I disagree. I think dreamer is honestly perplexed by the point of view that there’s no great power in charge of everything, and is doing what she can to wrap her mind around it. If she wanted to be an obnoxious witnesser, telling us all we’re fools and we’re going to Hell, that would be something else entirely. I think her questions, as meaningless as they might be to a non-theist, represent an honest and respectful attempt to learn something about an alternative viewpoint.
That being said, here are my responses.
1. What is “The Meaning of Life” to you?
There isn’t one. I like the tack taken by even sven – What is the meaning of continental drift? It just happens. What’s the meaning of quartz crystals being six-sided? What’s the meaning of moths laying their wings flat at rest instead of perpendicular to the surface like a butterfly? It’s just the way it works.
However, as I’ve said in other threads on the subject, I believe that this is an important question – not because it has an answer, but because of what it says about the way our minds work. We assign meaning to events in order to puzzle out cause and effect, in order to increase our happiness. This is useful if, say, we’re making the connection between the frayed power cord underneath a carpet, and the house burning down. I think it’s such a powerful intellectual tool that we’ve gotten carried away, and are attempting to apply it to larger issues where it simply doesn’t apply.
2. What is your purpose for being on this Earth?
This is closely related to the above on one level. However, even as an atheist, I believe I should make the most of the time I have. I could have been born a sand-scrabbling peasant in Ghana, or a crack baby in the Bronx. I could have been born without a brain and died within minutes. I wasn’t: I’m lucky. This doesn’t mean I have an obligation to make the most of my life; but I do have an opportunity.
That said, I believe my purpose is what I make it, and therefore I choose to learn as much as I can and to improve myself and the world around me to the best of my abilities before I die. That’s it, and that’s all.
3. Is there a Hero figure or anyone in your life that you have learned from or whom you look up to?
There are many: Carl Sagan, John Sayles, Ricky Jay… It’s primarily a matter of how they approach the world, the way they perceive their position and establish and pursue their objectives.
4. What do you say to your children when they ask "Mommy, Daddy? Who is God?"
Don’t have kids yet; we’re waiting for my wife to finish her PhD before we move on to a bigger challenge. However, when we do, I plan to give them an open-ended answer. It’ll be something like: People have thought about these enduring mysteries, where did we come from, what happens after we die, etc., for thousands of years. There’s no real way to know for sure, and a lot of people around the world have a lot of different explanations. One of them may be right. They may all be right to certain degrees. My opinion is that God was subconsciously invented to meet an emotional need, and that his presence has been assumed thereafter. This is a question I encourage you to keep your mind open about, and to investigate to your own satisfaction.
5. When a loved one dies or a tragedy happens in your life - What are the steps you take to deal with it.
Depends on the event. A good friend of mine committed suicide a few years ago. I mourned the loss of his presence in my life, and I mourned the deep sadness that brought him to that choice. I thought about what would be different now that he’s gone; I listened to others going through the same and offered sympathy. Then I took a deep breath and moved on. Never for a moment did I seriously entertain the possibility that his soul or whatever has gone to some purgatory-like place to atone for taking his own life. He’s just gone.
For less traumatic events – say, when the dot-com I worked for unexpectedly went belly-up and I found myself suddenly unemployed for the first time in my life – I think about the causes, I examine my own degree of culpability, I learn whatever I can from the episode in order to avoid a recurrence where possible, and I accept that sometimes, things happen beyond my control, and for which I cannot be blamed. Life happens. Imposing a fantasy structure on it, in my opinion, reduces my ability to see it clearly, and make sound judgments about it.
6. What do you believe happens to you when you die?
I return to the soil, whether it’s through decomposition or cremation. Those who survive me will mourn in their own way, but of course as my consciousness has been terminated I won’t have any way to perceive it.
The pragmatic response is that civilization has developed a certain self-sustaining creed, and I subscribe to it because I see its practical value. To wit:
Thou Shalt Not Kill: Sure, makes sense. I don’t think anybody has the right to take away my opportunity for happiness, which begins with my right to be alive, so likewise I don’t have the right to make that choice for anybody else. Thou Shalt Not Steal: Our social system works best when we are able to retain the fruits of our effort, as this is the primary motivation for creativity and labor, and society would break down if that were eliminated. Thou Shalt Not Have Sex With Your Sister: Simple biology says that the species suffers without sufficient genetic variation in reproduction. And so on, and so forth. I don’t need a threat of eternal punishment in order to convince me of the utility of an honorable life.
I’d echo the majority of other atheists’ posts here, so I won’t answer your questions except to add this: I have a son, who’s 8. We’ve discussed my non-belief a number of times, as many of his friends are religious, go to Sunday school, etc. I’ve tried to make it clear to him that while I personally find no reason to believe in God, he is free – in fact encouraged – to explore any religious beliefs he sees fit. He’s also free to explore none at all. (I never did understand the whole "you need to understand what you’re rejecting argument.) I don’t believe I am obligated as a parent to give him a “spiritual” upbringing; rather, I am obligated to give him a moral upbringing, that teaches him there are consequences for both good and bad actions, and that the first consideration he should give to any action is how it will affect others. More than anything, I want my son to grow up knowing that living your life caring for and protecting others is simply the right thing to do. When he’s an adult, will the threat of a bogeyman in the afterlife really be enough to keep him from doing wrong things? Maybe not. But if I’ve done my job, the idea that what he does can either hurt or help others will be. Does this make sense to anyone?
Also, I never say anything derisive of theism or theists, to him or others. I just say I think differently. Belief is something that is so personal to me that I’d just rather not discuss it with people I don’t know well.
Well, your question is then both overbroad and underinclusive. There are religions that don’t preach an afterlife, as well as atheists who believe in some form of an afterlife (brain wave patterns and such like).
No, no. You misunderstood. I don’t think the questions are silly; I thought the underlying premise is. I’m implying that your underlying premise is “how can you answer these questions without G-d?” I believe that you can’t decided to believe in a g-d because you want answers to these questions. Instead, you should believe in g-d because you believe in g-d, and answers may then flow from that belief.
As an atheist, I see some interesting things have come out of this thread.
Without fail (unless I missed something) everyone stated that when it came time to discuss religion with their child, they would discuss various religious view along with there own and leave it up to the child to decide for themselves. No one said they would force there beliefs on the child. No one said they would punish or otherwise look down upon their child for having differing religious beliefs that their own. Interesting indeed.
I also wonder what effect religious beliefs have on ones desire or lack there of to have children. Churches seem to encourage couples to have children (sometimes many children). But, several people here have shown little interest in having children. I myself have a step-daughter whom I love dearly; yet I have no real desire to have another child (of my own flesh and blood if you will).
Lastly, I think the contrasting teaching methods between atheist and theists show somewhat convincingly why there are so few atheists. If you have two devout Christian parents (for example) chances are you are going to be a Christian, no matter what you may have chosen on your own. If you have at least one atheist parent, presumably you have an enviroment where free thinking is possible and the outcome will be the childs choosing.
Any theist that have encouraged their child to find there own truth, please chime in if you think I’m off base.
Well I must say I am glad you responded to my last statement. I see your points and I didn’t mean to insinuate that you can’t be a good and honest person just because you don’t believe in God. I’m not “in your shoes” so I really don’t know what strong atheist believers like yourselves think. Now I do :D.
Now of course God would never say that. But let’s just say if he did, I would honestly have to reconsider a few things I’ve stopped doing in my life. Let me be clear on the reason that I stopped these things in the first place though. It wasn’t because I was afraid of God or his judgement. It was because I felt it was time to stop doing some of the things I was doing. Even the most enjoyable ones. In my heart I felt it was time to stop doing them in order to please the God I love. If you look at it as a “Father figure” sort of thing, then yes, God as my father wants me to lead a good life etc…etc…and I changed for him. Because I love him. Not because I was afraid of him.
I have no “meaning” in the way spiritual people think of the word. I simply am alive, I have life, and I live that life.
I do not believe that I am on this Earth for any particular purpose. I simply am. Within that life, I have my own purposes that guide my choices. My life exists before my purposes do. My life is in no way defined by any purpose, my purposes are defined by how I live.
My particular purpose in life is enjoyment. I seek pleasure. There are many different parts of my brain seeking pleasure, so this is not pure hedonism. If I desire an intellectual challenge, I seek it and defeat it, and this gives me pleasure. It can also be personally pleasurable to give others pleasure, so my purposes are selfish but not exclusionary. If I desire common forms of pleasure, I eat, drink, smoke, etc. All of my life is a series of decisions that I make in an effort to fulfill the maximum number of personal desires and bring myself the maximum quantity and variety of pleasure.
I generally look upto my father. I got alot of his bad habits, but I got some of his good ones too. He has some values I accept as consistent with mine and some I reject.
I don’t have children. When I do, I will explain god in sort of the the same way I would explain Santa Claus. “Well son, god is something that other children at your school believe in because their parents and family have told them he exists. We haven’t done that to you. When you get old enough to read daddy’s philosophy books, you can learn all about different ways people think the world is. One of those ways is called ‘monotheism’. Some people who believe in god think that an invisible man in the sky created the whole universe and that he wants you to do certain things and not others. Some think the invisible man doesn’t care. I don’t think there’s any invisible man at all, but when you’re old enough you can read books by the great philosophers and decide for yourself.”
Thankfully no close family member has yet died in my life. Some great-grandparents that I was somewhat close to have died, but I imagine that’s different than losing a grandparent or parent. If that, or any other dire tragedy, should occur to me I will turn to my friends and family for support.
I don’t believe in mind-body duality. The body and the mind are the same, the mind simply being the part of the body consisting of neurons and such. So when I refer to myself as “I”, I mean my body. I continue to exist after death, I simply have no consciousness or awareness of any sort. I will be at that point merely a collection of mostly-dead cells. So when I die, and my brain no longer functions, I will be disposed of in some way. That’s what will happen to me when I die.
The idea that one’s awareness will simply cease to exist can be paralyzing for some. I suspect that even Christians secretly know there is no afterlife. They’ve convinced themselves there is an afterlife as a survival mechanism to deal with their fear. If I’m right about my suspicion, that explains why the afterlife issue is one of the first always asked of me when someone learns I’m an atheist.
You don’t think there’s people who sway their kids to believe what they believe? Obviously many people force their kids to go to church, temple, pray, etc…etc. So that’s not something you personally would do, fine.
So “persons of faith” can’t mourn and grieve for their loved ones because they say God gives them comfort? My Grandfather died and though I was only a Christian for maybe a few months at the time, I had this overwhelming feeling of peace and unexplainable comfort. I mourned and cried because I missed him and knew he wouldn’t be here on earth spending time with me anymore, but I also knew it was okay. I know where he went, I know I’ll be there someday, and I feel comfort in that.
I do know of people who have “celebration funerals” though. I’ve never been to one but as far as I know they celebrate the life of the person and the peace they have in knowing they will see them again.
I don’t mean to pick on you CurtC, but that bothers me that you say that. First of all it hits a nerve from when my parents found out I became a Christian. Secondly I’ve heard many stories from parents who said they would be disappointed if their kids married a non-insert religion here-person, and even parents who say that about their kids being gay. I’m not a parent (yet), but I’ve worked with kids and teens for over 10 years. Having a parent be “disappointed” in you for choosing a lifestyle or particular belief system is crushing to kids. Kids want to please their parents and have them be proud of them. I hope you’ll rethink that statement for the future.
I have this funny feeling that the next question asked of me is going to be if I would be disappointed if my child was not a Christian. I figured I will just answer that now ;).
First of all I wouldn’t use the word “disappointed” if my child chose to believe something other than Christianity. Though I will bring my child to church with me and pray with them (until they are old enough to decide), if they choose to not believe in God then I would accept that. I’ve always believed that you should search yourself and the world to find some meaning to life. I think there is meaning and purpose and as long as you’ve searched the world to your hearts content, then whatever you believe at that point is your meaning. Even if that means you believe life has no meaning, at least you’ve searched. So if my child searched and found something else to be true for them, I would be proud of them for having done so. I would also tell them that I love them no matter what they believe and I probably would ask them lots of questions about why they believe and what made them believe that way and this and that etc…etc
**1. What is “The Meaning of Life” to you? **
I don’t think life has a meaning.
2. What is your purpose for being on this Earth?
Well, I don’t really have a purpose, but there are a few things that I live by. I never try to upset anyone. I try to be the best person I can. I respect anyone who respects me. I try my hardest at almost everything I do. I am almost always honest. I do volunteer work. I respect the law.
These are the kinds of things that I believe I should do if I am to live up to my personal morals. (There might be more, can’t think of any more at the mo.)
3. Is there a Hero figure or anyone in your life that you have learned from or whom you look up to?
I look up to my Mother, my Mum’s parents, Ghandi, people who risk their lives for others, people who make large sacrifices for others.
4. What do you say to your children when they ask "Mommy, Daddy? Who is God?"
Hmmm… I don’t have kids, but I would answer differently according to their age.
5. When a loved one dies or a tragedy happens in your life - What are the steps you take to deal with it.
It has never happened, so I have no idea how I would deal with it.
6. What do you believe happens to you when you die?
I have a feeling it would be like going to sleep, and staying asleep (but without dreams.)
Suppose you had a child who continued to believe in the literal story of Santa Claus well into his adult years. Wouldn’t you be disappointed that he didn’t have even the basic reasoning skills necessary to rule out such a belief? What if he thought 2+2=5? That it is possible for A and ~A to both be true within a single conceptual scheme? I tell you this, I’d think I’d failed as a parent if my adult child had such poor reasoning skills as that.
If I had a child who was a Christian as an adult, I would consider it a great failure on my part. If I have children, I want to instruct them on critical thinking skills, logic, reasoning, analytic philosophy. They are free to come to whatever conclusions they wish, but if they reach one so clearly self-contradictory and false as Christianity than surely that says that I failed to teach them well. I would be greatly disappointed in myself more than my child, who I would pity more than anything else.
>I guess the main reason I ask is because I wonder why if you believe there
>is no greater purpose, no judgement, and in the end your nothingness, then
>why try to lead a good life?
Well, responding to this seems to have become one of the canonical questions, so I think I’ll answer it as well:
I feel that my morality does stem from my faith in a greater good. The difference is that I don’t call the greater good “God,” I call it “humanity.” Perhaps also the “scientific method.” These are what I have faith in.
Add me to the list of folks that finds it rather disturbing that some people act morally solely out of fear of afterlife punishment.
This is exactly what I did with my son. “Mom, did Jesus die on a cross and then come back to life after three days?”, and I would say, “Some people believe that, some people don’t. What do YOU think?”…etc.
Now I worry that he thinks I’m some kinda wishy-washy ignunt. Or that I’m doing him a disservice by not providing him with a strong religous background against which to form ideas about the universe.
How is this not intolerance? If a guy wants to believe in Santa Claus…whatever gets him through the day is a good thing, in my book.
I’m an agnostic, with rather strong leanings towards Christianity, and I can’t help but get rather annoyed when someone “pities” anyone for their belief system. It seems condescending and elitest.
I can understand an atheist’s ire at a world in which fundies launch damnation against him/her for not adhering to whatever religion they’re hawking, but I can’t help but feel that attitudes such as RexDart’s are a backlash.
