That’s just silly.
Do you disagree? Is it better, for example, for a dog to be euthanized, or to spend seven years pacing around a small pen with virtually no contact with other creatures, thereby denying its most basic instincts? Show your work.
Daniel
On the pit bull example, let me ask you to imagine a situation:
-You run a shelter that receives 5,000 dogs every year from your community, due to people abandoning their animals, letting the animals breed and bringing the puppies to the shelter, and so forth.
-Despite your best efforts, you’re able to find homes for 1,000 dogs every year.
-Unless you want to close your doors to these 4,000 additional dogs every year (leading to their forming dangerous packs, spreading rabies, killing local wildlife, starving to death, being hit on the highways, freezing to death, dying slowly of disease, and so forth), you have to choose 4,000 of those 5,000 dogs every year to be euthanized.
Tell me, then, how you choose which ones to be euthanized.
Hell. Go to www.petfinder.com, and search for dogs in your region (by zip code). Of the first twenty listed, choose the sixteen that you’re going to kill, and explain why you chose those. Spend a moment imagining that you’re performing the euthanasia.
Consider that dogfighting is very prevalent in some areas, and shelters may have a legitimate fear that dogfighters will look for pit bulls at the shelter that they can subject to immense cruelty in the fighting pit. When a pit bull comes to your shelter, which group do you put it in–the group of dogs that will be adopted, or the group that will be euthanized?
That said, I disagree with this policy: any shelter ought to be sterilizing its animals prior to adoption, and dogfighters don’t want sterilized dogs. However, it’s vital to understand that this guy’s policy isn’t dooming additional animals to death: it’s just dooming different animals to death.
Daniel
Who are you arguing with Left Hand? I read the thread twice because I can’t figure it out. Is anyone arguing animals need never be euthanized? I thought the issue here was PETA’s operatives acting under false pretenses with these local shelters.
I frankly can’t tell what the issue is. It doesn’t look like animal cruelty to me, and the euthanasia rate that PETA is implementing doesn’t look abnormally high for the region, and the only evidence that PETA is operating under false pretenses is unquoted and unnamed vets and animal control officers, whose statements are contradicted by PETA.
Daniel
It seems to me that the issue of animal cruelty is implicit in the disposal of the bodies. Why, if the animals are being humanely destroyed, were they being tossed in a dumpster clandestinely? Let me quote levdrakon:
These questions all raise troubling possibilities. The area’s overall euthanasia rate doesn’t answer any of the concerns I see as implicit here.
By tossing them in a dumpster, they could avoid paying disposal fees. They could also avoid paperwork back at the office. They could also avoid driving a long(?) distance with corpses in the back of their truck during hot spring weather. They could also get the grim task over with.
There are various explanations, some criminal and some not. According to the news reports I read, the animals were killed via lethal injection, which suggests (although not explicitly) that Fatal Plus was used–the recognized most humane form of euthanasia. I’ve read nothing to suggest that the animals were mistreated in any way except for being killed when they didn’t need to be killed, which is why euthanasia rates in the surrounding areas is relevant.
Daniel
I must apologize - Sternvogel’s post was not made by hiim, rather by me. He used my computer to post some things to the board and I failed to notice that he had changed the user. He has no dog in this fight, as it were. And would be absolutely mortified if he read the spelling errors.
I understand why shelters are quick to euthanize pit bull type dogs. But I would have been much happier if the people who did it expressed some regret that they had little choice and that many great pets were being destroyed because of their appearance.
I do not subscribe to the “better off dead” philosophy at all, however. Let’s say you had shelter A that only adopted animals out to people if they put down a deposit towards spay and neuter, had one person who did not work outside the home or could ensure that the dog would not be alone for more than 4 hours at a stretch, and the home had a fenced in back yard. Using these strict criteria, they adopt out 50 dogs and euthanize 2000.
Shelter B did the same as A to ensure that the dogs were neutered, but other than that only used the fact that all the adults in the house wanted the pet as a criteria for adoption. Perhaps they’d adopt out 500 dogs and euthanize 1500. Of those 500 dogs, some might fall on hard times - they’d get hit by cars or suffer the other problems loose dogs can encounter. A few might even be placed in the homes of horders or other bad people. Perhaps 50 suffer untimely ends. BUT, 450 dogs found good homes and lived like most pets in America - with owners that work and may have to walk them or chain them out on occasion (not 365/24/7, just an hour or two a day).
In my way of looking at things, getting 450 dogs good homes is better than getting 50 fabulous homes. I also think it’s better to place kids in adoptive homes even though for a small minority my have a harder time in an abusive home than at an orphanage.
Unethical:
Picking up dogs, cats, puppies and kittens on the pretext of finding them homes with no intent to follow through.
Administering lethal injections to healthy, adoptable dogs, cats, puppies and kittens in the back of a van. Even worse, this was done without a licensed veterinarian. (I read a reputable cite earlier today in which it was revealed that among the dead animals in the van, medication illegal for a non-veterinarian to be in possesion of, along with the equipment to administer it, with were found. I have had a hell of a day, and I cannot find the cite again. I will keep looking.)
Stuffing the corpses of the killed animals into garbage bags, and tossing them in a dumpster, behind a grocery store no less, every week, for at least four weeks. Did any of you see the photo of the person checking one of the bag’s contents, in full haz-mat suit? I don’t know about out in the real world, but here on this remote island we are required to either bury a dead pet at least three feet deep, or cremate the remains.
peta could be a significant force for the ethical treatment of animals. I acknowledge again that animals, be they companion animals or animals for public/private viewing, are often mistreated. I rescue and re-home on a small scale, and I also assist people who have pets which are in need of anything from behavior modification to diet to grooming. One needn’t be an extremist to work on the behalf of animals.
peta needs a good housecleaning, IMNSHO.
If this is what they did, then I agree it’s unethical. I’m not at all convinced that this is what they did.
Oh dear. While this may be unethical, the van’s not part of the ethics of the situation, and nor are the euthanizers: the unethical part is the people who don’t sterilize their animals, making this a necessity. Our own shelter has to euthanize thousands of healthy, adoptable animals every year, due to the epidemic of overpopulation of dogs and cats in our community and across our nation. It is horrific, but it’s better than the alternative.
Yeah, now THAT sounds like a problem, specifically, a DEA problem. Note that most animal shelters don’t have a licensed vet on staff, however, and so most euthanasia at shelters and pounds is done under a vet’s “supervision,” which generally consists of a vet in town who’s willing to sign her name onto the DEA paperwork to get the drugs needed for euthanasia: there’s no legal requirement in NC that a euthanasia tech has ANY training at all, much less is a vet. (Our shelter has an on-staff vet, and all euth techs go through a multi-day training course prior to beginning euthanasia).
But the DEA is really skeevy about keeping track of Fatal Plus, and if they were carting it around in their van without the appropriate paperwork, they could be in lots of trouble.
I betcha you’re also allowed to place the body into your garbage can to be disposed of–certainly that’s legal in our jurisdiction. It’s unethical to steal garbage disposal service from the grocery store, I’ll grant you that; but that’s theft of service, not animal cruelty.
I absolutely agree with you there. However, I think that 450 dogs getting horrifying homes is worse than 400 dogs getting euthanized and 50 getting good homes. It’s a matter of where you draw the line.
Again, I think that the pit-bull ban is an irrational line to draw, but it’s ultimately unlikely to reduce the total number of animals saved.
Daniel
Left Hand of Dorkness are you suggesting that the story is being misrepresented in so far as dogs, cats, puppies and kittens were being picked up under the pretext of adopting them out, and then, before following through and at the very least having the animals checked out by a veterinarian and an attempt at adopting them, they were euthanized and improperly dumped in an extremely undignified and unsanitary manner?
I am quite irritated at myself for not bookmarking the article citing that the medication, needles, and syringes were found in the van. Perhaps they did have proper authorization and paperwork to back up the posession of these items. I will be calling both my veterinarian as well as the woman who runs our Humane Society shelter tomorrow and see what their take on this story is.
As far as I know, placing dead dogs and cats into the public dumpsters (we do not have private trash pickup) is a big no-no. I come to this conclusion because we are not allowed to dump deer and other subsistence carcasses into the dumpsters. It’s unsanitary, and attracts bears, ravens, crows and seagulls. Oh, and those big bald eagles as well! I know that my vet has the facility on his property to cremate pets, euthanised or otherwise deceased, and I know that the incinerator at the “dump” is also utilized for euthanised shelter/stray animals. I cannot fathom the coldness required to place those bodies into garbage bags and hurl them into a dumpster.
I am completely against any breed bans, other than “designer breeds”.
I see very clearly that, while you and I are on the same side of the street in our compassion toward animals in general, we are never going to either agree or convert the other. At this point I am going to agree to disagree with some of your points, and concede that you will disagree with mine. I appreciate the opportunity to exchange ideas.
Wendy
The only bit I’m not sure about that you mentioned is that the animals were picked up under the pretext of adopting them out. I’d want to see the written agreement between the shelters/vets and PETA. (And if there’s no written agreement, well, you know what they say about oral contracts).
Please do so. I can only tell you about NC laws in this regard, and then only partly, since tracking the medication isn’t part of my job.
Fathom, then, that incinerators are extremely expensive, and that an animal shelter can choose to spend its limited budget on caring for the living animals or on assuaging the consciences of humans by burning the bodies of the dead animals, after it no longer matters to the animals themselves what happens. Personally, I’d far rather the budget be spent on the living animals. The sanitary issue is a real concern, though; I agree on that.
Likewise I appreciate the opportunity!
Daniel
Daniel,
I have been surreptitiously disposing of these barrels of toxic waste in my basement by slipping them into the dumpster behind the 7-11 near my house. The last time I did so, I noticed an unmarked car with 2 government suits in it follow me home. I think I’m about to get busted for illegal dumping. May I use some of your arguments in my defense? They sure fit well!
You spelled “horsewhipping” wrong.
Feel free to use some of my arguments, but if you think they’d be in your defense, you’d be as idiotic as anyone from PETA would be to use my arguments in defense of charges against improper waste disposal.
Mirabile dictu, it’s possible to hold a nuanced position, in which they’re clearly violating waste disposal laws but not violating animal cruelty laws.
Daniel
I’m sorry, I don’t speak Russian. 
Either that was the lamest “Commie!” insult in the world’s history, or else I’m being whooshed. Eh. Whatever.
Daniel
Daniel
I spent a good part of the day on the phone with the Borough Clerk, The City Clerk, the City Manager, the Manager of the Humane Society Shelter of Kodiak, Dr. Kenny Brown DVM, the City of Kodiak’s Animal Control Officer, and the office of Dr. David Colwell DVM. This is what I have found out.
Concerning the use of medication available only to licensed veterinarians:
This link http://juneauempire.com/stories/081803/sta_euthanasialaw.shtml
verifies what I was told by my vet, and the woman with whom I spoke at Dr. Colwell’s office, as well as the Manager of the Humane Society of Kodiak, hereafter referred to as the Shelter Lady. The Shelter Lady procures the medication from one of the licensed vets in town (we have two) and she then administers the injection/s required to put the animal/s down, without the direct (on premises) supervision of a licensed veterinarian. “A veterinarian or certified euthanasia technician will perform euthanasia. The shelter manager or assistant will be present at all euthanasia. Euthanasia drugs will be stored at the veterinary clinic, not on shelter premises. The veterinarian or euthanasia technician will maintain a drug log.”* Providing that there is such a law in North Carolina, and that one of the individuals had the proper authorization and training, s/he would not be breaking the law by euthanizing the animals, however I will reiterate that it appears that the two employees were driving around with euthanasia medication, and the means to administer it. I do have to question the manner and location in which it took place, as one of peta’s larger issues focuses on animals being in discomfort and/or fear. Surely the back of a van, along with a dozen or more other animals either waiting their turn to be injected, or dying, or dead, is not a comfortable, relaxed atmosphere.
In my location if one is in possession of a euthanized animal, it must be incinerated, the point being to not allow the chance of another animal/s eating any of the euthanized body, thereby poisoning an innocent animal. Also to keep the body from decomposing and leaching the medication as well as other nastiness into the water table. The body of a pet which has been euthanized must not be released by a veterinarian, although a client may request to have the ashes. Here, the folks in North Carolina have broken the law, at least in my state, I would presume that this is a common law, it makes sense. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Yes, there is a fee for having an animal’s remains incinerated. The baler (landfill) charges $2.50 per pound, I forgot to ask that question of my vet, so I don’t know how much he charges. Perhaps peta could allocate more funds from it’s public relations account towards the responsible and ethical disposal of the bodies of the animals it euthanizes.
As for oral contracts, well, one is only as good as one’s word. Enough said.
Daniel, you said “By tossing them in a dumpster, they could avoid paying disposal fees. They could also avoid paperwork back at the office. They could also avoid driving a long(?) distance with corpses in the back of their truck during hot spring weather. They could also get the grim task over with.”
Avoiding paperwork implies a lack of truthfulness right up front, which troubles me. I do not like to be lied to. What are the implications of undone paperwork in connection with the statistics peta provides? As for avoiding driving long distances with the corpses, why not bring the animals back alive to whatever peta calls their shelter (not snarky, I don’t want to say “Headquarters” as I am certain there is some special place peta utilizes to euthanize animals, perhaps a place with a veterinarian who would examine the animals, and hopefully pronounce at least some of them as adoptable. Maybe even a place where a person looking to save an animal could wander in and pick out a pet to cherish. A place where the grim task of ending an animal’s life could be done with dignity, for both the animal dying, and the human ending that life.
Euthanization is not something I take lightly by any means. Not too many years ago (maybe four) a friend’s cat had yet another litter of kittens. When the kittens were at the scamper stage one became caught when a child slammed a door, and it’s pelvis was crushed. The friend was going to have her husband simply break it’s neck, but I took the tiny thing to my vet, along with the friend. I held the kitten while the vet confirmed that it was not going to make it, and I told him to put it down. I held the kitten the entire time, and for such a tiny thing, it took ages before it’s heart stopped completely. I was in tears, and the friend stated that she would have preferred that her husband break it’s neck, as the euthanizing was “too much like a death”. 
:eek: This friend was from the village, and it has been accepted practice there to break necks, step on heads, shoot, or drown any unwanted/injured pets. I paid the bill for the kitten, and then soon after brought her cat to my vet and paid for her to be spayed. I currently own one of those kittens, which had been mauled by a dog, and when she was freshly injured I myself injected her with cortisone until she could walk again. Yes I injected her daily, me, who passes out at the sight of a needle coming at me. Angel (my daughter named her) is gimpy as hell, but we love her, and she leads the life of a queen. My point being I understand that only the hardest of hearts could take the lives of animals with impunity for any reason, including severe illness or injury, even viciousness. Life is precious, and for a person who is willing to dedicate their lives to the welfare of animals, it has to be gut wrenching to euthanize even one, let alone scores.
As I stated before, we do not see certain things in the same light. The Shelter Lady and I had a go-round a few years back, and while we are now on friendly terms, my eyes were rudely opened to the bottom line as seen by The Humane Society and Animal Rights Activists, and I do not agree with them.
Wendy
*Quoted directly from the Euthanasia Policy of the Humane Society of Kodiak
Man I’m glad the one time I ran into a PETA drone on the street I didn’t donate. My feelings about them have been steadily declining the more I hear about their activities. :dubious:
It appears that my fears were, in fact, grounded in reality.
http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=3497648&nav=23iibExo
Am I the only one concerned that these two were not only uncertified to administer euthanasia medication, but were driving about the countryside with these medications in the van with them? As well as the equipment to administer them?