Well, you seem to be the one who has hijacked this thread into a pointless debate over Goodwin’s Law even after I demonstrated conclusively that you were completely wrong about what GL actually states. However, you want to bring it back on track? Fine, start by answering the question that I posed above: What has PETA done that makes them deserving of ANY nuanced consideration?
As for what they’ve done, they’ve provided a humane form of euthanasia for counties in North Carolina that were using inhumane forms of euthanasia. Locally, they’ve helped bring attention to this local horrific animal abuse, ultimately helping to bring felony animal cruelty charges against the organization’s operators.
From what I’ve seen, about 25% of what PETA does is pretty fucking awful; about 25% is pretty good; and about 50% is political activism whose value (good or bad) depends on whether you agree with their starting position.
But even if they had never done anything good, that’s beside the point. What makes the situation worthy of nuanced interpretation is good old-fashioned interest in the truth. If you were to accuse Dr. Mengele of developing a virus to kill all little girls, I’d express skepticism there: not because he’s worthy of being defended, but because the truth is worthy of being defended.
Daniel
Even if one accepts that a large number of animals have to be euthanized (and I do accept that), Even if PETA is euthanizing no more than the average percentage of animals for the area (Although This article seems to belie that-“PETA’s adoption rate – about 19 percent from 2001- 03 – is lower than that at some other animal control services, such as Isle of Wight County Animal Control, where the adoption rate spiked to 70 percent last year.”), it still seems clear that PETA was operating under false pretenses.
From here.
Two “very adoptable” kittens were killed out of hand, kittens which the Ahoskie Animal Hospital was actively trying to adopt out (and thus presumably were good candidates for adoption). PETA took those kittens with a promise to continue to try and find them homes, but they never even made an effort to do so. THAT is the type of conduct that I am condemning, I am condemning it because because the truth in this case is warrants being condemned.
Okay, first off, those Isle of Wight numbers are very strange to me: I’d want to see what’s going on in their community, that it works this way. There have been shelters in the past who tweak their statistics in order to increase their fundraising efforts–for example, they euthanize unadoptable animals in a separate facility, or they report euthanasia of “unadoptable” animals separately from numbers for “adoptable” animals (and consider a huge number of animals to be unadoptable), so as to make their statistics look better.
There is also a large discrepancy between euthanasia numbers in the South and the North, due to a variety of factors (cultural attitudes toward sterilization of animals, weather that allows animals to be outside for a greater portion of the year, etc.) I don’t think Isle of Wight County is that far north, but its proximity to DC may imply some cultural differences between it and the south.
Once again, what you’re looking at is one person’s account of a conversation they had awhile ago with PETA, and you’re not looking at PETA’s account of the same conversation. It seems clear to me that in such a case, the thing to do is to look at the written agreement that the parties had with one another.
If such an agreement exists, then fantastic: if PETA said in a written agreement that every animal would be evaluated by a veterinarian, or that every animal would get a chance at adoption, then I’ll join you in condemning them. But if they didn’t say that, then the vet you quoted is misrepresenting PETA, and I expect you to join me in defending them against this particular charge.
If there’s no written agreement, then I’ll continue to withhold judgment.
In any case, thanks for the link to the article. The more I read, the more I see that:
- These particular employees seem to be real assholes, who were letting laziness or other factors diminish the care they were bound by job to provide to these animals;
- The charges of felony animal cruelty are very unlikely to stick;
- PETA has been doing great work in that area (you’ll note that they’ve spent well over a quarter of a million dollars on physical improvements to shelters in just these two communities and obviated the questionable gunshot-euthanasia and the often-horrific gas-chamber euthanasia in these communities); and
- PETA needs to fire these two assholes posthaste and ensure that all their other employees doing similar work are following every single ordinance and organizational procedure.
Daniel
And who would have custody of all these animals meanwhile?
From what I recall, PETA wants laws changed such that people are guardians, not owners, of pets, and their relationship to their “companion animals” would more closely resemble the legal relationship between a parent and toddler. Except that parents can’t get their toddlers spayed.
Daniel
Thanks Daniel for your detailed posting about this matter. It’s sad on all accounts. I’ve worked in the Orange Co, NC, APS shelter; at the wildlife shelter, but with overlap with the domestic shelter. At the time, Orange Co., being affluent, had one of the highest adoption rates in the state, but that still meant thousands of animals euthanized. It’s heartwrenching work; low-paid, stressful, hard work cleaning up neglected animals upon arrival, and the mess of cages. Heaped upon that is seeing an animal you’ve cared for have to be euthanized. It hurts your heart, day in and out.
This was a well-run shelter, with a good funding base. I’ve looked at Daniel’s link http://www.peta.org/feat/acgas/indifference.shtml, which details a poorly run shelter. It’s a PETA site, but I think it bears looking at to understand the full picture of where their arguements come from. I have problems with PETA’s methods, but also understand that they witness cases of animal abuse every day. It’s pretty horrifying, and after seeing enough of it, the call to extreme measures would be appealing in order to end abuse.
In this case, I think PETA was just plain stupid. They set themselves up for a big backlash in a easily misinterpreted “mission”. I’ve done euthanasia with wildlife under the auspices of a good veterinarian, and was properly trained to do so. We had to meticulously log every cc amount under DEA guidelines. For PETA to allow people affiliated with them (an easy target) to administer euthanasia out of the back of a van and dump the bodies in public dumpsters is not acceptable. If they want to do good work with animal rights, the sad fact of euthanasia included, it needs to be an example of the proper way to do it. If the people doing it were an anomaly of PETA practice, the organization needs to monitor it’s employees better
Kaiwick, I see your thoughtful post, but be aware that animal shelter work is very hard, and underfunded. I love animals, that’s why I’ve done shelter work. I’ve been the one to inject an creature who was beyond help and needed to have a merciful exit. (That can be called as a judgement, but have seen slow deaths as well, and I feel that the injection route is more humane. My experience is in critically injured creatures) It hurts everytime to see that death.
In that light, if this thread about PETA pisses you off as to their motives, understand that they are the result of seeing the immense problems of pet overpopulation. Left hand Daniel Brings this up well. Donate to your local animal shelter, or better, volunteer at one . Immense work to be done.
Thanks, elelle! And cool place to work; we used to get animals from the APS when I was growing up in Chapel Hill.
As near as I can tell, these folks were not following organizational procedure; as you mention, there are very strict DEA guidelines, and they were likely not being followed. I’m a little confused why only one employee has been suspended: perhaps the other employee, being new, was just following what his direct supervisor said was procedure? But yeah: it looks like generally they’ve done good work in eastern NC counties, and if they want to continue that, they really need to audit employee practices and make it clear that this sort of shit isn’t copacetic.
Daniel
My biggest problem with PETA at this point is that they can’t see the PR problems with their methods. They need to be scrupulous, with proper methods. Otherwise, they are tilting at a very large windmill.
And what does that have to do with making sure that a person has basic marksmanship skills before you give them a job shooting animals? Around here, the mass animal killings are done by cops, all of whom are required to be proficient with their weapons.
Why would someone prefer to shoot an animal when an injection and deep permanent sleep are possible? If you “really” believe that shooting is more humane than injection, then we don’t we shoot death row prisoners? It seems completely barbaric and disturbing to shoot a captive animal to end its life. The fact that cops are called in to do it somehow doesn’t surprise me.
You know death penalty opponents argue that lethal injection is painful, right? Why not simply slit their arteries, since that’d be fairly painless?
Well, who else would you have do it? A bunch of drunken rednecks?
It isn’t cruel and it isn’t difficult. All it takes is a small caliber pistol or rifle, like a .22 rimfire, properly placed against the skull of the animal. The brain is destroyed and death is instantaneous.
Why don’t we shoot death-row prisoners? I don’t know. For some strange reason, society insists on inventing weird and complicated ways of executing prisoners, even though a bullet in the back of the head would suffice.
Nothing–but it directly addresses your original question, i.e., what’s wrong with using gunshot as a euthanasia method.
Daniel
elelle you are assuming that I am neither as informed nor as experienced as either you, Daniel, or any other shelter/rescue worker. You are incorrect in that assumption. I have volunteered in shelters. I have donated to shelters money, food, toys, bedding, cat furniture, etc. I have taken in many strays, cleaning them up, getting them to a vet, and re-homing them after they are in a stable condition, as well as caring for neglected pets in neighborhoods I have lived in over the years, and there have been enough times that the decision to euthanize was the ethical decision to be made, and I have held each and every one of those animals in my arms and wept bitter tears over the loss of a precious life. I have put a great deal of my own money into animals which do not even live in my home. Currently I am living with a physical disability which has severely curtailed my hands on involvement, and yet I still manage to help place pets, advise pet owners concerning diet, behavior, and grooming issues, etc. (Today I am grooming a pomeranian for a friend who is in over her head.) I offer my council when I find someone is looking for a purebred dog, both in choosing the breed wisely and finding a reputable breeder, as well as encouraging the adoption of a dog from the shelter. Excuse my rancor if it is unjustified, but I percieve a definite air of patronization in your remarks to me, and yes, I resent it. As far as extreme measures being appealing, well that statement could be applied to many, many different facets of life in general, and it would still never be justified in the eyes of the law.
The point which is being obscured by all the empathetic talk of the poor animals and their desperate living conditions, as well as all of the “good works” peta has done, are the facts of the case at hand. In the words of Daphna Nachminovitch, director of peta’s domestic animal and wildlife department, “All animals peta accepts are supposed to be examined by a veterinarian”. To run a death camp out of the back of a van, and to callously dispose of the corpses in an unlawful and unsanitary manner in what amounts to a mass grave in a dumpster on someone elses’s property, at someone elses’s expense, is far, far beyond “stupid”. It is criminal. Imagine peta’s outcry if they had discovered the same situation done at the hands of anyone else, with the exception of their brothers-in-arms organizations.
In addition to charges already filed, how about this tidbit:
"peta typically takes animals from North Carolina to Norfolk, where those deemed unfit for adoption are killed with a fast-acting lethal injection. (Ingrid) Newkirk said in a news conference Friday.
Only veterinarians hired by peta are supposed to kill animals in North Carolina, she said."
“‘There is no reason for what happened, and there is no excuse for what happened,’ Nachminovitch said."
"Virginia law states that domestic animals, such as those PETA was transporting, must be accompanied by a note from a veterinarian saying the animals are healthy and fit to travel before entering the commonwealth, said Elaine Lidholm, a spokeswoman for the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.
Lidholm said she did not know whether PETA had obtained the proper documents for moving animals into Virginia.
‘We were not aware PETA was transporting sick animals across the state line for euthanasia,’ she said."
“Asked if Hinkle had been getting notes from veterinarians, Nachminovitch said, ‘That is something that has to do with the legal case, and I can’t comment on that.’”
This thread isn’t about whether animals are abused, neglected, or living in abject misery. Those are facts of life, and responsible, ethical people take jobs in shelters, or rescue, or donate time, money, items, etc. to shelters and rescue organizations. Yes, responsible, ethical people also spay/neuter their pets. Irresponsible, unethical people take animals under the guise of homing the animals, and then, contrary to what their own organization proclaims to be SOP, they murder healthy, adoptable animals. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together and has done research on the organization knows that peta will not be satisfied until no animal has any human contact at all, and that if the human race insists on thriving, well then, damnit, they had best live a vegan lifestyle.
Daniel, you continue to cast your doubts that there were any written agreements between the veterinary clinics/shelters and peta concerning an agreement to at least attempt to adopt the (now) deceased animals. If there was not a written agreement, then, IMNSHO, peta was being disingeneous at best as to how they were obtaining the animals, and at the worst, they were outright lying. I have spent the last two days pouring over every piece of information I could find on this incident, and these were not strays, they were healthy, adoptable pets which were put to sleep because peta’s agenda is to eliminate pets completely, as I have previously cited.
I will withold judgement for the time being with regards to The Humane Society, although my understanding is that each individual shelther is overseen by the organization’s policies. Other animal rights groups, on an individual basis, are likely doing a good work. However, the wingnuts make it terribly difficult to be sympathetic to their cause because of their extreme fanaticism.
Well said!
Daniel, I have to assume from your posts in this thread that if the KKK opened a homeless shelter, you’d be right on the front lines, applauding them for the good work they are doing. You really need to rethink your priorities.
Not to be snarky, kaiwik, but I’ve worked for an animal shelter in North Carolina full-time for the past five years. elelle’s assumption is correct: I am more experienced in this area than you. I do very much appreciate the work you’ve done, but I don’t think you can set your relevant experience fairly against mine.
First, “death camp”? Ixnay on the xaggerationay, okay? If you’re vegan, you’ve got a right to such hyperbole, but if you eat animals from a slaughterhouse, then either you too support deathcamps or you need to use less inflammatory language.
Second, of course it’s criminal. Nobody that I’ve seen, including PETA, is disputing that. My only dispute is the nature of the crime or crimes: I dispute that we’ve thus far seen anything rising to the level of North Carolina felony animal cruelty, and I’d wager good money that those charges will be dropped (or else the defendants will be found not guilty).
Third, better than imagining PETA’s outcry if someone else were doing something similar, how about you show us a single example of such an outcry? Hell, in a community not twenty minutes from where I sit, they used to take their animals to a retired pediatrician, who killed them with ether; that most likely qualified for felony animal cruelty but PETA never raised a peep about it. (In fact, the pediatrician told me proudly about his public service when he and I were at a volunteer fair together recently, genuinely unaware of the illegality of his actions).
Frankly, PETA wouldn’t say shit about some other group operating a similar mobile euthanization unit, because, to the best of our knowledge, no animals suffered. Yes, adoptable animals were killed; between three and five million animals (many of them adoptable) are euthanized due to overpopulation in our country every year.
PETA’s activism on this issue takes two types:
- Encouraging spaying and neutering; and
- Agitating around situations where the method of euthanasia causes suffering.
If you’ve got any evidence to the contrary–a single iota of evidence that PETA has objected elsewhere to the euthanasia of animals when such euthanasia was performed via intravenal injection of a barbiturate–now’s the time to offer it. Otherwise, now’s the time to retract your fanciful theory.
Once more, nobody in this thread disputes that these two guys committed crimes. The dispute is over the nature of these crimes.
Anyone with two brain cells to rub together an has done research on the organization knows that that’s hyperbole.
I do not see how you reach that opinion, except that…
…except that you misunderstand PETA’s agenda. Do you know the difference between firing workers and diminishing your workforce through attrition? PETA advocates eliminating companion animals through attrition, not through mass slaughter.
Once more: there is no “The Humane Society.” (or if there is, it’s an extremely minor group). The big three animal welfare organizations* in the US are the Humane Society of the United States, the American Humane Association, and the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. While local humane societies may have memberships in any of these groups (I think), they have absolutely no national oversight over local humane socieities. Anyone can call themselves a humane society, an SPCA, or an Animal Protection Society.
I recognize the truth of that, and I understand its cause: the reason why you have to assume that is that you’re remarkably stupid.
Daniel
- PETA is usually considered an Animal Rights organization; more extreme than them are the Animal Liberatio organizations.
This PETA organization, and its leadership, Ingrid Newkirk, just seem to get more and more wacko the more I read about them.
I will also not defend any PETA member, least of all Ingrid Newkirk, against charges of stark raving kookiness. 
Daniel
…although I’ll add that that was an editorial you linked to, and that its statistics on euthanasia are way off, as are their estimates on how many animals $20 million annually will care for, and their relying on the Center for Consumer Freedom for information on any animal-related group is embarrassingly stupid.
Daniel