I think some of y’all are full of shit. When Pete Rose got fucking crucifed it was Baseball that hurt its own integrity. Rather than a punishment that fit the alleged crime. Rose is out…fuck them. There was more at play there than just Pete’s bad boy image.
Many players have been allowed to continue with fines and reprimands. This reminds me of Thorpe losing his medals because he was an indian. Yeah, they said it was for something else then too.
Whatever…I really don’t give a shit anymore. I quit watching sports years ago. Seems like they’ve all gone to hell anyway. Bunch of fucking dopehead superstars with idiots as coaches and managers and the fans are just as bad.
There was a time…boy was I fucking delusional or what. Jocks have always been fucking blockheads (generally speaking) Who the fuck are we to think they have evolved to some higher plane.
It’s US that are to blame. We have put atheletes on some kind of fucking pedestal and set them up as role models and payed them millions$$$$ to play sports.
Let me get the hell outta here, this is one of the reasons I got away from professional sports, sheesh.:smack:
Witnesses also said that Jackson tried at least twice to let Comiskey know what was going on. Comiskey didn’t want to hear it and his staff told Jackson, in effect, “Keep the money.”
This site implies Comiskey knew about the fix and was covering his ass. The BBC says Shoeless Joe even asked to be benched for the duration of the series.
I don’t know if any of this ever came out in the trial however but if true it’s easy to understand why Comiskey wanted it kept quiet.
What a lovely steaming pile of bullshit. How kind of you to have deposited it here instead of … well, somewhere else.
You are incorrect inasmuch as you seem incapable of grasping that it has no fucking bearing on anything in the world whatsoever how well Pete Rose played baseball. He could have a 1000-0 lifetime winning record as a pitcher and never have lost a game as a manager in twice as many tries. He could have hit a home run in every ballgame he pitched and never made an error whilst playing the entire outfield and catching every conceivable ball.
IT IS IRRELEVANT. HE IS BANNED FROM THE GAME. AS SUCH HE IS INELIGIBLE FOR THE HALL.
He is right. You are not only wrong but stupid as well.
That a six-year-old can understand this point and you cannot has some pretty serious (and fucking hilarious) implications.
No other perspective is necessary. Pete Rose’s ineligibility is the reason he is not in the HoF. If he were eligible he’d probably be in. But … again, we return to the crux of this issue, which is that HE IS INELIGIBLE. it doesn’t matter how good he was as a baseball player. He was disqualified.
The thing about your drug dealer/user etc. analogy, Maureen, is that there is nothing that says “anyone caught using cocaine will be banned from the game for life.” Nor is there one about violence on or off the field. The only thing one can do to be banned from the game (currently, that is) is be caught betting (the wording is much longer legalese, but that’s most of the crux of the issue).
Meanwhile the discussion on Jackson is uncovering much interesting information.
I just wanted to say that Neurotik has impressed the hell out of me with is cites and arguments. Very well done old chap. (Or young whipper snapper; I really have no idea.)
Just an opinion here:
If Rose does ever admit to betting on baseball, that should NOT excuse him and allow his ban to be lifted. Betting on baseball is a lifetime ban. Period. Saying you’re sorry doesn’t cut it.
He would be an idiot to admit to betting on baseball, in my opinion (there, I said it a second time). If he fails to admit to it, 85 years from now people can argue whether he really did or didn’t bet on the game by pulling up obscure references to this that and the other thing. If he admits to it, there will be no doubt and his entry into the Hall should never, ever be debated again. Just like what happened to Shoeless Joe.
As to the claim that Jackson tried to tell Comiskey, it’s complete malarkey. That story is based on Jackson’s own claims made years later, after he had exhausted all avenues trying to get back into the game. There’s no evidence Jackson told anyone this part of his story until at least 1924. There are NO witnesses, not one single statement at the time of the event of the trial, who made any such claim - not even Jackson himself, who went into the entire event in great detail in his testimony and never once suggested he went to Comiskey. You can read the transcript of his testimony online with a quick search. He never mentioned it. There’s no reason at all to believe it’s true.
Jackson DID ask Kid Gleason to sit him out at least once, but he never suggested he even told Gleason about the fix (frankly, there’s reason to believe Gleason knew anyway.) However, at that point he’s guilty as hell anyway.
t-keela:
Name one player who has been found, with actual evidence, to have gambled on a game he was participating in who was “Allowed to continue with fines and reprimands” anytime in the last hundred years. Just one.
I’d say that’s not just an opinion, that’s a fact. There is no “if you admit to it you can be let back in after X years” or else Jackson would BE in the Hall.
Considering that a good many of his fan base believe he is guilty of jack shit, this is extremely accurate. Financially it would be a blow to the head with a jackhammer. He makes his money being “Pete Rose, All-Time Hit King”, not “Pete Rose, All-Time Hit King Who Bet on Baseball and got Banned from the Game”.
Supporting a cause without necessarily knowing the facts behind the entire story is a national pasttime, possibly even a tenet of humans. The Football Story is only slightly more popular than the “He Wuz Robbed!” story.
Never let facts get in the way of a strong opinion, I always say;) (i.e. you’re spot on, IMO)
t-keela asserts:
He was busted for not being an amateur; the ESPN Sportscentury report on him that I saw said that he had played semi-pro ball. The medals were later returned when it was pointed out that the whole thing started after the statute of limitations had run out (I think they started something like 6.5 months after the fact and the limit was 6 weeks). All of this, to be frank, is gathered from that show, though it has never been my impression that ESPN gets their facts wrong on these things. I am open to correction.
Jim Thorpe got busted for doing something a lot of “amateur”/college athletes used to do: he played semi-pro baseball, to make some pocket money.
This was a common practice once upon a time- college stars would adopt phony names, and play for semi-pro football or baseball teams, who would pretend not to know whom they were hiring. The pro football Hall of Famer Johnny Blood was one such example: he was a college player under his real name, John McNally, but made money playing semi-pro ball under the phony name “Johnny Blood” (supposedly, he took the name from the marquee of a movie theater that was showing the bullfighting movie “Blood and Sand”).
Jim Thorpe’s biggest mistake (well, aprt from breaking the rules!)was in playing under his own name! If he’d used an alias, as many of his contemporaries did, chances are, no one would ever have raised a stink or taken away his medals.
Thorpe was an incredible athelete and pissed off the wrong folks. So, they found an excuse to fuck him and took advantage of it.
Pete Rose got banned for gambling…okay.
He was a fucking monster on and off the field. He was also an asshole and he talked too much shit and he pissed off the wrong people. They found an excuse to fuck him and they did.
Believe what you want…I really don’t give a shit anymore. The powers that be are just gonna do what the fuck ever they want and lie to us to justify it. So fuck it…I’m gone.
I take it that whenever someone who is not the current trendy/acceptable thing to be is caught violating rules (whether they intend to or not), it is a travesty of justice, t-keela? Or do you just vilify whatever you cannot defeat with rational thought?
What the hell are you talking about? Who did Rose “piss off” by “Talking too much shit?” Are you just making stuff up out of a crack pipe?
Rose was as beloved ambassador of the game. He was held up as a role model to kids for how the game should be played (with good reason, I might add.) The only thing he pissed anyone off with was the damned gambling. You’re full of shit, pal.
He also pissed off his wife by fucking anything and everything that didn’t have a cock and then flaunting that fact around Cincinnatti, despite his wife’s pleas not to. His former teammates have made comments to the effect that Rose was never very much of a team player, but rather it was all about him.
A few posters have made the point that Rose should be judged on his accomplishments on the field, not as a manager vis-a-vie his gambling on baseball and the Hall of Fame, saying that he only bet on baseball while he was managing the Reds.
No.
Rose’s last few seasons he was a Player/Manager, and he was most certainly betting on baseball then, and there is evidence that he was betting on baseball as far back as the late 1970’s.
One more anecdote that shows what an AssHat Rose was. After Gene Garber of the Atlanta Braves stopped Rose’s hitting streak at 44 games, Rose bitched and screeched that it wasn’t fair because Garber refused to through Rose fastballs.:rolleyes:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the batter doesn’t get to choose what type of pitch gets through his way, does he?
At least not these days. Back in the 19th century, sure, but not now.
Um, I don’t know much about baseball, but I have to say that I don’t understand those of you who would totally divorce Rose’s conduct as a baseball player from his conduct as a baseball manager. It’s still baseball. It’s not like he was managing a foosball team. You argue that his conduct as a manager cannot erase his achievements as a player, but you ignore the obvious flip-side of that argument: His achievements as a player cannot erase his conduct as a manager.
IMO, putting him in the HoF would be tantamount to saying “we care ONLY about athletic ability; we don’t care about the integrity of the game.” And that would do a lot more damage to baseball than anything Rose ever did.
A brief defense of Joe Jackson, from the Grand Jury testimony on the fix:
Q: Did you make any intentional errors yourself that day?
A: No, sir, not during the whole Series.
Q: Did you bat to win?
A: Yes.
Q: And run the bases to win?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And fielded the balls at the outfield to win?
A: I did.
From the 1924 testimony of James Hamilton, official scorer of the 1919 Series, when asked if he saw anything suspicious involving Jackson’s play:
A: There was only one incident…
Q: Did Joe Jackson have anything to do with that play?
A: He did.
Q: What was it?
A: He threw a ball from center field to the plate; the ball was apparently going to Schalk to catch the runner at home plate. Cicotte intercepted it by jumping in the air, knocked it down and booted it and the runner scored… It was a good throw.
Did he know about the fix? Yes. Did he play to win? All the evidence I’ve seen says yes (no, I don’t include Mr. Costner’s take). Did he try to tell Comiskey on at least one occasion? Possibly, but the evidence is no better than sketchy (although stronger than RickJay would suggest – Harry Grabiner, Comiskey’s assistant, noted in his diary that Jackson came to see him after the Series, but turned him away because Charlie was already busy in a meeting with some of the other conspirators). Did he receive and keep money after the Series as payment for the fix? Yes.
IMO, he knew about the conspiracy and did nothing to prevent it, but also did nothing to contribute. Certainly, his behaviour was no worse than that of Rose. Therefore, I again suggest that if they decide to end Rose’s suspension, they should lift the ban on Jackson. But I still think they both got what they deserve and baseball should have the guts to remain firm on its position.
Rose gambled. Joe Jackson’s behavior was far worse.
Joe Jackson conspired to throw the World Series for a pay-off. He did more than know about it. He took the money, which is a direct act in furtherance of that conspiracy.
You didn’t agree woth Costner’s take? Try John Sayle’s take in Eight Men Out. Jackson said he made no deliberate errors, but if he simply doesn’t get to a ball, it’s not considered an error by rule. And if he didn’t get to the ball because he wasn’t running at full speed… You get what I’m saying. Since Jackson took the money to throw the game, his credibilty is shot, and everything he says about it is suspect. Everything.
Rose was banned gambling, not for trying to throw a game for money. Of course on could argue that the reason they ban guys for gambling is because guys who gamble* may well* throw a game to win his bets. I don’t think Rose every tried to throw a a game. But he still deserves the ban.
But Jackson’s actions were far worse. He admitted to conspiring to throw not just a game, but the World Series.
I disagree, spooje. Jackson accepted money after the fact for actions he may or may not have committed at a time when game fixing was relatively commonplace and before the league had specifically set down policy on it. It was only after the grand jury aquittal that Comissioner Landis handed down his now-famous ruling, thereby creating The Rule:
“Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player that throws a ball game; no player that undertakes or promises to throw a ball game; no player that sits in conference with a bunch of crooked players and gamblers where the ways and means of throwing games are planned and discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball.”
Jackson admitted to receiving the money and he admitted to keeping it. As such, he admitted to being part of the conspiracy. But, as I noted in my quote in the earlier post, he did not admit to playing to lose. Ever. The official scorekeeper agreed.
Rose knew about The Rule. It had been in place for 60 years. He knew precisely what the consequences were and gambled anyway. That, in my mind, is at least as bad as what Jackson did, if not worse.
That said, I still remain firmly in the “neither one of them belongs in the Hall of Fame” camp. More importantly, I’m very much in the “Selig needs to sack up for once in his useless life and put this whole Rose controversy to bed by just announcing that he’ll never, ever be reinstated” camp. But since Selig is a pin head, I don’t see that happening any time soon.
Whatever the wrong thing is, we can count on Selig to do it. So the only way this controversy will ever be resolved is when we find out what Selig’s final decision is. Then we will know that the opposite is the correct decision.
You have a cite for that? It was my understanding that NONE of them recieved a dime AFTER the series, Further, most of them did not recieve the full measure that they had conspired to take (they were promised 10 grand each, and only Cicotte got all 10 grand).
Babe Ruth died of Cancer of the Lymph glands. A disease that has come to be known as Babe Ruth’s disease. I know. My dad died from it. And it is not affected by drinking.
Charles Comiskey, the owner of the White Sox, and after whome Comiskey Park was named; had promised his players bonuses if they won the championship. Then he welched on the promise.
At that point Abe Rothstein had Hal Chase (a former player in both Chicago and Cincinnati) contact Sox players. Eddie Cicotte, perhaps the best player on the team, had a child who needed medical attention. He agreed to fix the series for the money that Comiskey had welched on. The other players went along, because they were pissed at Comiskey. Cicotte, Jackson and the catcher, Cracker Shalk, would all, certainly, be in the Hall of Fame had this not occured.
Ty Cobb attacked a fan for a racial epitaph. The same fan also made reference to Cobb having killed his father. (Someone was breaking into Cobb’s house on the second floor. He shot the man. The man turned out to be his father. Cobb was, I think. 18 at the time.) When Cobb was suspended the rest of his team refused to play as long as he was suspended.
None of these players was ever convicted of anything; or went to prison.
Pete Rose went to Prison. He was convicted of defrauding the US Government. While sitting in the owners box at Turfway Park, Pete Rose won the Trifecta. His ticket was worth $86,000. So, instead of paying the taxes on that horse racing bet, he sent his flunkey down to cash the ticket. The flunkey claiming that it was his own winnings.
