Pete Rose: The Asshat STILL doesn't get it

It’s difficult to nail down the total of Rose’s gambling losses, punha. We’re talking about thoroughly illegal activity, after all. Nevertheless, testimony taken says that he lost $400,000 in one three-month period in 1984. The Zumsteg analysis I linked above also discusses one of Rose’s favorite ways of paying off his losses, which was to get legitimate loans–the bookie gets the cash, Rose gets the payments. One such loan was for $125,000.

You might also want to read this story from the Dayton Daily News. It describes a conversation with Rose tape recorded by a bookie trying to collect on a 3-year-old debt of $30,000 that Rose had skipped out on. The bookie had serious Mafia connections. Just the sort of people you want to have leverage over a major league manager, right?

**
It doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter.

Once Rose bet on baseball, EVERYTHING he does becomes suspicious. That’s the entire point, NM, and that’s why baseball bans anyone who bets on baseball.

This is a conflict of interest writ large. The rules about conflict of interest holds that the EXISTENCE of a conflict of interest is itself the offense - whether or not you acted improperly for the other interest. To use an example, I have some purchasing power in my job. If I used it to funnel money to a corporation I owned, I would be fired, without any warning or review. It wouldn’t matter even if you could not show that there was any impropriety in the decision to give the contract to my corporation - maybe it qualified in every way. Totally beside the point. I put myself in a conflict of interest, so I’m history.

Pete Rose put himself into the worst conflict of interest a pro baseball manager or player can possibly be in - a financial interest with gamblers. We don’t know for sure that he did anything untoward as a result, but that’s the problem. Once the conflict of interest exists you just cannot tell for sure; once he is betting on the game you cannot separate decisions based on normal strategy from decisions based on his interest in gambling. Nobody could EVER separate the two. So the offense must be stopped at the point of placing the bet. You can’t sort it out after the fact because you could never, ever know for sure if a decision was honestly made or not - even the man MAKING the decision can’t know that for sure.

It’s critically important to understand this:

Pete Rose was NOT banned for being a scumbag.

Pete Rose was NOT banned for being a bad or evil man.

Pete Roe was NOT banned for being a liar and a gambling addict.

Pete Rose was NOT banned because someone thinks gambling is evil.

Rose was banned because he broke a rule. That’s it. He broke a REALLY important rule, and that rule carries the penalty of permanent banishment. That penalty is not accidental and it is not arbitrary; it’s as severe as it is for a variety of very good reasons.

Is there a body of evidence that the team finished remarkably different in the standings than conventional “wisdom” or the betting line indicated?

If not, then they’re penalizing him for potential infractions. How is this different from potentially commiting a crime to actually committing one? How is this different from someone like Darryl Strawberry agreeing to quit drugs to continue playing, while volating this agreement time after time and being given a break time after time? Or Lawrence Taylor? Or you-name-it?

I don’t “get” the severity of this infraction. Depending on who you talk to, there are scumbags in any profession. In various halls of fame, at the tops of every profession and in every major sport.

Being a scumbag is not a good enough reason to exclude him. **
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Tigg, I know the “12 men out” saga, and I do see the danger of betting against your own team.
I don’t see any problem with betting on your own team to win. In “series sports” like baseball, I can see the possible corruption, but that corruption does not apply blanketesque to all sports.

*Originally posted by NutMagnet *

I’ll just follow up with an addedum to RickJay’s dead-on response. The reason for the severity is that it is THE cardinal no-no of baseball. It’s been in place for over 80 years now. The “no betting on baseball” is even posted in the team locker rooms - a constant reminder of just how important the rule is. EVERYONE knows that there are severe consequenses for betting on baseball.

Pete Rose decided, for whatever reason, to flout the cardinal rule of baseball. For that, and that alone, is the only reason why he has been banished from baseball (and been made ineligible from the Hall of Fame).

Read the post by RickJay which appears just above yours. We are talking about baseball here, but the ethical dilemma can certainly apply to any sport at any level.

For anyone who is interested this is the betting rule which is posted in baseball clubhouses:

Rule 21(d):
BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

Of course, there’s no reason I can think of why the Hall of Fame has to either enshrine or not enshrine players. Pete Rose is an important figure in the history of baseball, both for his play and for the scandal surrounding him. If you view the job of the Hall of Fame to be that of a historical museum as opposed to a place-to-enshrine-unsullied-heroes, then I think it would be totally reasonable for the HoF to include Pete Rose. But as an example of the good and the bad in baseball, not as just another HoF player.

BTW, the rule was there, he broke it, there shouldn’t be any sort of arguement here. He signed the form, he knew what he did, he can eat his hat.

I just took issue that not all sports are as open to corruption and not all betting on own teams by players is bad.

Sure, MaxTheVool, if you view the Hall that way. But almost no one views the Hall that way. Being inducted into the Hall of Fame is an honor. Rose violated a core rule in baseball and should never be allowed in, except as part of a feature on gambling in baseball. But he shouldn’t get a plaque.

This is the second time I’ve done this in a couple of days, but: What RickJay said.

Rose got a lifetime ban for violating a very important rule with very severe consequences with very good reasons. I say his ban is permanent, forever, or it’s meaningless.

In this sense, there are Rose artifacts in the Hall of Fame. Balls and bats connected with him are proudly displayed, and there’s a room with updated record holder lists that has “Pete Rose, 4,256” on top of the Career Hits board.

It’s not that Rose has been made an Unperson in the Hall. The museum of American baseball history part of the building has plenty of Rose.

So, did he own the team, or did he play, or just manage the team?

(Help a non-baseball fan out here)

Played, then became a player-manager who inserted himself into the lineup way too often in selfish pursuit of the all-time hits record (Rose wasn’t even a mediocre player his last few years), then just managed until he got the boot.

Or to give you a timeline:

1963: Rose enters league with Cincinnati. Wins Rookie of the Year Award.

1963-1978: Becomes huge star in Cincinnati, winning two World Series and having many great seasons.

1979-1983: Joins Philadelphia Phillies. Wins 1980 World Series, has some good years but by 1983 was an awful, old player.

1984: Rose started the year with Montreal, who dumped him back to Cincinnati. He became manager of the Reds the moment he joined them.

1985-1986: As manager of the Reds, keeps playing himself (he’s 44 by this time) despite questionable worth.

September 1985: Finally breaks Ty Cobb’s hits record.

1987-1989: Manager only of the Reds. It is sometime in this time frame that Major League Baseball begins quietly investigating his gambling connections.

1989: Thrown out of baseball for violating Rule 21(d) (gambling on a game in which he was involved.)

1991: The National Baseball Hall of Fame passes a new rule prohibiting players on the “permanently ineligible” list (like Rose) from being elected to the Hall. Before that it had always been an unwritten rule.
Rose, as a player, was a great player for at least a 10-15 year stretch, an excellent pure hitter, got on base on the time, and was a versatile and dependable defensive player. He won an MVP Award and a World Series MVP Award. He won three batting titles and two Gold Gloves. He was terrific.

As a kid, I admired him because of the way he played. Rose was unlike any player I have ever seen at any level. On the field, he RAN. I don’t mean he was fast; I mean he ran, everywhere. When he drew a walk, he ran. He ran full speed onto the field and when the inning ended he ran full speed off it. He ran full speed from the batter’s box to the dugout. And he wasn’t jogging… he was running like a man whose life depended on it. He was always paying attention, studied the opposition, studied the game, always tried, never gave up.

In the 1980 World Series he made a play where the Phillies’ catcher, Bob Boone, dropped a popup and Rose grabbed it before it hit the ground; I am telling you right now that it is quite possible that no other first baseman who has ever played the game would ever have made that play. Most first basemen would not have even thought to BE there if they saw the catcher was there in time, but Rose saved his team’s bacon with the game on the line.

If his team was down 25-0, he played just as hard as if it was a close game. He was made to switch positions three times and he never complained, just worked at his new position. He was smart, never did anything stupid, just played like hell.

If you wanted a kid to have someone to emulate as to HOW to play baseball, you could not pick a better role model than Pete Rose. Always hustle, always be alert, be respectful of the game and its traditions, be friendly to your teammates, always try to help the team, play smart baseball, be patient, and hustle some more. That was Rose. And that’s what makes this whole thing such a shame, really.

RickJay said:

And the sad irony of Pete Rose’s life and career is that the same obsessive streak that drove him to be such a great ballplayer is probably what drove his gambling problem and ended up costing him the very game he loved so much.