Shoeless Joe should’t be in. He took money to throw the world series. That’s a fact. Regardless of whether he tried to lose, he took the money. Doesn’t matter that he tried to give it back.
Footnote to the Alex Karras story:
The very first game after his suspension, he goes out for the coin toss. Ref says, “Captain Karras, call it in the air.” Karras replies, “Oh no sir, I’m not allowed to gamble.”
I’ve never really understood why people felt it was important Rose admit what he did and apologize. IMHO, if he came out tomorrow and admitted he gambled, apologized for all the trouble, begged for forgiveness from every baseball player and fan in the world, and promised to go into gambling rehab, he should STILL be banned for life. IMHO, he can never be allowed to participate in MLB again, ever, as long as he lives, no matter what.
However, I’ve softened on one thing: If he truly apologizes and gives full disclosure of his wrongdoings, I think the Hall of Fame should allow him to be up for election. But he can never be involved with MLB itself.
Indeed.
The person who got the shaft on this whole deal was Buck Weaver, who got no money and didn’t try to throw the series. He simply knew about it, but didn’t report it. But Weaver doesn’t belong in the Hall just based on his stats.
Zev Steinhardt
Oblong:
That fact is not undisputed. Many think that Jackson was not really in on the plot, and Landis overzealously included him with the others.
Of course, with all potential first-hand accounts long dead, there’s no way anyone can do more than speculate. So we accept the judgment of those who were there at the time and leave it be.
As it is, historical speculative absolutions seem to be, as a rule, quite faulty. I can’t begin to count how many people retroactively declared Alger Hiss or the Rosenbergs to be innocent victims of McCartyism, with us discovering now that the USSR’s books are open to us that the prosecutors and juries had indeed been right all along.
Joe Morgan’s book, which ATM I can’t remember the name of, went into some depth about the Pete Rose situation (in part because so many people ask him about it, I guess, and in part because he played with the guy). I don’t have the book here in my hand to quote from it, but his basic surmisal was that as much as Pete Rose has said he didn’t didn’t didn’t didn’t gamble on baseball, there is evidence to quite clearly show he did. If I remember tomorrow I’ll try to put some of the relevant information down.
IMO, based on stats alone, he deserves to be in except for ONE stat: he gambled on baseball. He messed with the integrity (as much as others may say lots of people do) on a basic level. His unwillingness to admit it is just one more brick in the wall.
I’m just going to piggy back a question that just occurred to me reading this thread. Every year when the voting for HOF inductions occur, there’s at least a couple of writers that put down Rose for a write in vote. Are these write ins in any way binding? What I mean is, if in some bizarro world Rose got the required 75% of the vote via a write in campaign, what would the Halls response be?
Nanook,
According to the Hall rules cited above, Rose is ineligible. They could write his name on every ballot, he doesn’t get in if he is on MLB’s ineligible list.
The solution that works for me (and, apparently, for RickJay) is one that Pete Rose has been offered, and has refused.
Rose has been asked, both publicly and privately, “Would you be willing to accept a compromise? What if major league baseball said you can have your plaque in the Hall of Fame, but you can still never be employede in baseball again?”
I’ve seen Rose dismiss this scenario with scorn. Fact is, he DOESN’T just want his plaque. He wants back in the front office or, preferably, in the dugout.
Legally, he doesn’t have a leg to stand on, and he knows it (otherwise, he could have gotten a high-profile lawyer to take the case, and sue the pants off baseball). Instead, he’s chosen to work the press, where he has loads of fawning fans. Rose kissed reporters’ backsides for years, and they’re just DYING to return the favor.
So far, Rose’s PR campaign hasn’t gone anywhere. And he’s not bright enough to grasp that he can’t win this fight on his own terms. He remains convinced that his sheer gall and his continuing popularity will eventually make him a manager again, if he just hangs tough and keeps playing the media card.
Frank Deford isn’t the only reporter willing to act as Rose’s press agent. He isn’t even the most powerful (really, when’s the last time anybody cared what Deford said about anything?). He’s just the latest to do it in a very public forum.
If Rose had shown the SLIGHTEST remorse (even if it were only a few, phony crocodile tears), he might well be in the Hall of Fame right now. And deservedly so. But he can NEVER be trusted with a job in baseball again.
A word about the Hall of Fame; the Hall of Fame is a totally independent institution from all of organized baseball. It is not owned or controlled in any way by MLB or anyone else. The facilities are owned by the Clark foundation, a private enterprise, and the artifacts are technically the property of the State of New York, since it’s legally a museum.
The BBWAA votes that are used to elect Hall of Famers therefore exist at the Hall of Fame’s discretion; they can ignore the votes if they want, reduce the requirement to 50%, whatever suits them. They can also create new and different ways of inducting Hall of Famers, as they did with the Negro Leagues Committee (to good effect) or the Old-Timers/Veterans Committee (to bad effect.) Induction is separate from election; they don’t HAVE to induct someone the BBWAA votes for, and could induct someone the BBWAA didn’t vote for at all, as they did with Satchel Paige.
If the BBWAA voted for Rose, they wouldn’t induct him. Indeed, the BBWAA was furious when the Hall of Fame formalized this rule (prior to about 10 years ago, it was just understood you weren’t supposed to vote for suspended players. It was never an issue because most writers who actually remembered Joe Jackson wouldn’t have voted for him at gunpoint.) The BBWAA’s response was basically “too bad.”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lurkernomore *
**
Baseball was always harder on gambling, with notices posted in the clubhouses. Durocher was suspended for 1947 for ASSOCIATING with gamblers. Not gambling. Associating.
**
Willie Mays was suspended from baseball at one time for signing a contract with Bally’s. (I think it was Bally’s Fitness Centers, but I’m not sure.) The reasoning was that a division of Bally’s also makes slot machines, and that was considered too close of an association with gambling.
Rose bet on baseball; I wouldn’t care if he hit 10,000 home runs in his career, that alone would exclude him from the HOF as far as I’m concerned.
Mickey Mantle, too, was “suspended” from baseball for accepting a job with a casino. The bans were rescinded in the 80s.
Zev Steinhardt
Steve,
That was a casino - maybe Bally's Park Place. Durocher didn't even have a contract - he just associated. And he was an active manager. And as Zev says, Mantle was banned at the same time. I thought that petty - they were outcasts for working as essentially greeters, and at a time Mantle had a son dying of cancer (or leukemia?) who I think he was supporting.the retired ball players that promoted bally’s requested permission from the ccommisioner at the time to do the comercials. i remember it being reported in the news. without an ok from mlb they could have been tossed out of the hall of fame under the “association with gamblers” bit.
Thanks for the clarification, lurker. It was many years ago, and I was fuzzy on the details. But I did remember it being a very petty offense, and I was trying to underscore your point that MLB has been very tough on the flimsiest of links to gambling.
And incidentally, Willie Mays got tagged at the same time, for the same reason.
Why don’t I read???
:smack:
Then again, I posted the HOF link, and I also said that MLB had no control over the HOF, and they were both repeated, so I don’t feel so bad.
So take this: 
In fairness to MLB about the Mays/Mantle thing, both men WERE retired from baseball. The MLB’s year-long suspension essentially amounted to “You can’t come back to MLB as long as you’re working for them, and twelve months besides.”
I actually saw a promo video in which Mays and Mantle SANG about Bally’s. They should have been suspended for being in that commercial.
oooh, yeah, the singing video. that was “interesting.”
**
True. But still they would often put in appearances on Old-Timers day, coach spring training, be a “special advisor,” etc. These tasks were then denied Mantle and Mays. It’s not as if there was nothing to lose.
Zev Steinhardt