Physics/Speed-of-Light Question

As one travels faster and faster (as I understand it) time, for the traveler "as perceived by a bystander”, slows down. An oft-given example is that when I send my twin brother off to Alpha Centauri for some special ‘shine and he travels at, say, Warp 0.95 to get there and back, it’s a wasted trip. By the time he gets back, I’m a long-rotted corpse. By my lights time slowed for him (although he didn’t notice it at all).

Here’s my question. Since all frames of reference are equivalent, can’t one say that my twin didn’t move at all, instead the entire Universe moved and he stood still? In which case everything except him moved so he should age faster.

Upon consideration this seems to devolve into “What does motion mean?”, or, “What does it mean to be ‘at rest’?”

Now my head really hurts….

Anyone?

While you’re waiting for the people who really know this stuff to show up, we had that exact question for our T.A. back in college. He actually didn’t know the answer, but took some guesses (how lame is that?).

Anyway, I think you’re confusing general and special relativity – in special relativity (I think) there is no acceleration, so every frame of reference is the same.

General relativity, among other things, can account for the effects of acceleration and that seems to matter in this case. Here’s how my physics T.A. put it – from you’re perspective, you’re just hanging around at home for a few years. From your twin’s perspective, he’s accelerating like crazy to get up to 0.95 c, decelerating like crazy when he gets to Alpha Centauri, and then decelerating again when he arrives back on Earth. There is definitely a difference (that can be measured objectively) between those two frames of reference.

That’s it – I’ve used up all of my relativity knowledge.

What you’ve described is the twin paradox. As RitterSport says, the solution cites general relativity.

Google “Twin paradox” for your answer. What I’ve never been able to grasp is why is the rocket ship guy accelerating. Why can’t he claim that the universe is accelerating away from him and he’s maintaining velocity?

Ah, yes, the good old Twin Paradox. The key here is to realize that there aren’t two different frames of reference here; there’s three. You, here on Earth, have only one frame of reference the whole time, but your brother has two different frames, one when he’s moving from Earth to alpha Cen, and one when he’s moving from alpha Cen to Earth. This might be easier to understand if your brother doesn’t have his own spaceship yet, and has to hitchhike: On the way out, he’s traveling with Zaphod, who just keeps on going in the same direction before and after this leg of the trip, and on the way back, he’s traveling with Marvin, who also doesn’t change his speed or direction. So our three frames now are bikebloke’s frame, Zaphod’s frame, and Marvin’s frame.

You can pick any frame you want to do your calculations, but you have to be consistent about it. In your frame, you stay at rest, and your bro travels away from you at high speed, and therefore stays younger than you, and then comes back at high speed, and stays younger than you then, too. Net result is that when he lands again, he’s younger than you.

On the other hand, in Zaphod’s frame, for the first leg of the trip, your brother is at rest, and you’re moving at high speed, so for the first leg of the trip, you age less than your brother, in that frame. But then, your brother leaves Zaphod’s frame and goes into Marvin’s frame, which is moving very fast relative to Zaphod. For the second leg of the trip, Zaphod sees himself still at rest, you moving fast relative to him, and your brother moving much faster than you, so for the second leg of the trip, Zaphod sees your brother aging much more slowly than you. So much more slowly, in fact, that by the time your brother gets back home, you’ve caught up with him and then some, and so now you’re older than him again.

We could do the same thing in Marvin’s frame, but I think that’s enough to get the idea across.

Because his feet are being squished into the floor? No squishing if at rest?

That’s all I got.

Contrary to what other posters have said, the solution does not require general relativity. Special relativity can handle changes of reference frame, so long as you recognize that they are in fact different frames.

Velocity is relative, but acceleration is absolute. When you hit the gas in your car, you feel yourself pushing back into your seat, which you don’t feel when you’re just driving at a constant velocity (no matter how great).

Sorry, my bad. Ignorance fought and defeated.

Length contractions somehow factors in there I think. So if the entire universe suddenly moved at the speed of light, it would also get infinitely flat in the direction of travel.

Here’s an interesting site I found looking for the answer.

And that’s enough. Relativity depends on an inertial frame, that is, one that is not accelerating. It has to go in one direction at a constant velocity, or else it is accelerating and other forces act on the inhabitants.

(An accelerating frame of reference is equivalent to gravity, although I’m not qualified to take that discussion much further.)

Are there still 3 frames if he doesn’t go there and back but instead walks in a circle at light speed? Is the acceleration and the deceleration what cause 3 frames?

Also, what if he is standing next to a black hole and not moving at all, still 3 frames?

/Nitpicking…

Alpha Centauri is only 4.37 light years away, so I believe the maximum time you’re going to be able to advance on him in age is 8.74 years, assuming he doesn’t take any detours around the galaxy. (Traveling at 0.9999999…c, from his perspective, he would have gotten to his destination instantaneously because the entire distance was squashed flat as a pancake, but from your perspective, it took him 4.37 years to get there and another 4.37 years to get home)

If he was traveling at 0.95c, from his perspective, he only had to travel for 1.43 years (due to length contraction) to get to Alpha Centauri, and another 1.43 years to get home. From your perspective, it took him 4.6 (4.37/0.95)years each way. The difference between the roundtrips of the two is 6.34 years.

So you’re not exactly going to be a “long-rotted corpse”.

It’d be fast but not instantaneous.

From this page if he was going v = 0.9999999999999999999999951 c the trip would take him (from his perspective) 0.43 milliseconds (which assumes no time to accelerate/decelerate/accelerate/decelerate on his trip).

But yeah…his twin on Earth would not die of old age waiting and would see him return in 8.74 years (not counting acceleration times again).

In that case, there are an infinite number of frames. You could instead get away with a large but finite number of frames if his path were a polygon, instead of a circle.

Here, you do need to bring in GR. But now it’s not the number of frames that’s causing the asymmetry between the twins, but the presence of the black hole.

EDIT: Let me rephrase that: You can, in some sense, regard it as being an infinite number of reference frames, owing to the fact that even though he’s “not moving at all”, he’s still constantly accelerating. But constructing those frames now requires the mathematics of GR.

In GR it doesn’t matter if you’re accelerating, you can still consider yourself at rest. The acceleration of the rest of the universe is capable of accounting for the age difference.

http://www.pa.msu.edu/courses/2000spring/phy232/lectures/relativity/paradox.html

Edit above:

If the astronaut considers himself to be at rest, and the rest of the universe to be accelerating, he’s still going to feel the same forces; only now he considers them to exist because he’s deep in a gravity well where time runs slowly.

Because doing so would be pointless and boring.

Hence the ellipsis following the “0.9999999”, which I meant as: "continue adding decimal places until the trip is more or less instantaneous. " :wink: