Piss Off! We're not having that here.

The BBQ Pit
1

Let me preface my remarks with the following background info;

I am a strong advocate of multiculturalism. I adore it, perhaps because of my travels, I have been fortunate to experience many different cultures. And I love Islam, there is a Mosque where I live, I have worked for a muslim man, I have hired a muslim woman, I have visited several Muslim countries, have muslim friends and have even broken bread on feast days with them. I, personally, find Islam to be a strikingly beautiful faith.

That said, on to the article that has me so angry;

“Attacker refuses Shariah divorce”

“…In the current case, the 31 year old man, attacked his wife in their Montreal apartment in Feb 2006, stabbing her several times, including in the face.
He then stabbed the infant girl twice in the stomach. She spent 10 days in hospital recovering. The crown says his refusal to grant his Muslim wife a Shariah divorce should be considered an aggravating factor when he is sentenced.
That, say advocates, is the problem with refusal to recognize Shariah law in the Canadian judicial system. ‘Observant Muslim women, especially those who emigrated from Islamic countries, feel they have no where to turn’, said Shahina Siddiqui, executive director of Winnipeg based Islamic Social Services Association, ‘Many, many times we see this’.
“The issue of divorce will be decided over there.” He told the judge referring to their home country of Lebanon. He also denied he needed treatment for his violent behaviour.
The woman earlier told the court she would like to return to her family in Lebanon, but without the religious divorce, she worries she could be forced to return to her husband or face charges of abducting her own daughter.”

I’m all for religious freedom but this is where I draw my line in the sand. As much as I admire the ingenuity of proposing the problem as the solution I will not stand by and watch this oppressive law be foisted upon women in my country, even willing women.

The problem is not that Canada does not recognize Shariah law, but that Shariah law is so oppressive that this women cannot return to the warm embrace of her family in Lebanon, following these traumatic events, without fear of being forced to return to a man who tried to kill her and her child. WTF? Without his consent no divorce will be granted and she could be charged with abducting his child --HER OWN DAUGHTER!

I have never been terribly politically active, but mark my words, I will demonstrate against this in every way open to me.

I would also add that Shariah law exists in many nations, if it’s a deal breaker for your survival perhaps you should have chosen one of those countries to immigrate to.

I know it lacks vitriol but I am, I assure you, extremely angry about this. How can you possibly believe that a country that embraces same sex marriage will allow any part of it’s population to be dragged back into the middle ages?

PISS OFF! :mad:

2

Okay, I’m trying to understand what happened here. She wants to divorce the asshole, but only in the religious sense, correct? And it’s up to him to secure the religious divorce, right? So she wouldn’t have the option to divorce him either way if she was in Lebanon, right?

3

From what I know about it, Shariah Law is a piece of shit. It was only last year that they amended the Rape Law, which required FOUR MALE WITNESSES to prove a rape. If the victim could not provide four male witnesses, she was put to death for adultery. Religious tolerance be damned, that is one archaic piece of shit that needs to go.

From what I understand there is a growing women’s movement in these oppressive countries. I hope the time for change will be soon.

4

It sounds like a Canadian non-Shariah divorce wouldn’t be recognized in Lebanon.

Good reason not to go back to Lebanon, I guess.

However, the OP is “we’re not going to have that here.” Sounds like you don’t have that in Canada–she can get divorced there, stay there, and not worry about getting sent back to her husband. If she wants to go to a different country, she’ll have to abide by that country’s laws. It sucks that that’s where her family is; have they considered emigrating to Canada?

5

That was my interpretation of the situation, too.

Is there something we’re missing here, elbows? Is Canadian law somehow accommodating the Shariah system that you find so reprehensible?

6

Kalhoun. Please. You don’t have to quote the entire OP whenever you reply to a post, especially when it’s the second post and your reply is general. [/hijack]

7

Yeah, this is the part that’s not making sense to me:

“The crown says his refusal to grant his Muslim wife a Shariah divorce should be considered an aggravating factor when he is sentenced.” Okay, sure; he won’t let her go and then he stabs her. “That, say advocates, is the problem with refusal to recognize Shariah law in the Canadian judicial system.” This is where I’m lost. How woud recognzing Shariah law in Canada help? He wouldn’t give her a Shariah divorce, much less a Canadian one. Do they mean “recognize” like give it equal legal weight, or do they mean “recognize” like just acknowledging it exists? “‘Observant Muslim women, especially those who emigrated from Islamic countries, feel they have no where to turn’, said Shahina Siddiqui, executive director of Winnipeg based Islamic Social Services Association, ‘Many, many times we see this’.” Why would Canada’s failure to recognize Shariah leave women with no place to turn? On the contrary, in the absence of acknowledging and respecting Shariah, the women can turn to the Canadian civil system for assistance – and a divorce that doesn’t require the husband’s okay. I’m confused.

I can see her dilemma of wanting to go back to Lebanon but fearing that without a Shariah divorce she might be exposed to more violence – but that’s Lebanon’s problem, not Canada’s.

I don’t see how having Canada recognize Shariah law would help this woman in any way. Clearly, I must be missing something.
“The issue of divorce will be decided over there.” He told the judge referring to their home country of Lebanon. He also denied he needed treatment for his violent behaviour.

8

The idea of Shariah law being enacted in Canada gives me cold shivers up my spine. I’m hoping that we won’t go down that path in the name of multiculturalism, because some things are not right and should not be tolerated, even in a tolerant society.

Do you know if the couple are Canadian citizens, elbows? I’m not sure how international divorces work, but if they got a Canadian divorce, I’m guessing they must have been Canadian citizens, in which case, the law of the land is the law, period. Her concerns about going back to Lebanon are not an issue for the Canadian legal system to worry about, but her and her daughter being attacked in Canada certainly are, and I hope her ex is prosecuted as fully as possible within Canadian law.

In other words, I second that emotion, Elbows. If you are in Canada as Canadian citizens, you are now bound by Canadian law. If you don’t like Canadian laws, don’t emigrate here.

9

I’m confused here. The husband has refused to grant his wife a Shariah divorce. I understand that the woman wants a Shariah divorce because the Lebanese judicial system may not recognize a civil divorce decree issued by the Canadian judicial system.

How would this change if the Canadian judicial system recognized Shariah divorce? Could the Canadian judicial system then compel the him to grant her a Shariah divorce instead of, or in addition to, a civil divorce?

10

I think part of what elbows is up in arms about is that there is a movement (of unknown strength) in Canada to recognize Shariah law. We have bent many regulations in the name of multiculturalism (google RCMP and turbans for an example), but this is one place where Canadians feel we shouldn’t go. Have I got that about right, elbows?

11

Without Shariah law in Canada she cannot seek a religious divorce, the only one that counts in the eyes of the devout Muslim community.

Without a Shariah divorce, should she return to Lebanon, she could be charged with abducting her own child and forced to return to her husband. She could seek a Shariah divorce there, but without him present (he’s going to jail, one hopes, for a long time) it will surely go against her, she has not even a faint hope, so heavily slanted is the male position in all things Shariah.

The implication is that if we recognize Shariah law she could get that divorce, the details of the case being available and confirmable, in addition to the husbands presence. Then she could safely return to Lebanon, religious divorce in hand, safe and sound into the warm embrace of her family following her terrible ordeal.

What’s not being said, is that once we recognize Shariah law we have no guarantee that it will be applied any more fairly or in line with our own laws. It would effectively become a separate court and have final say in all things Muslim. It could be, as is seen in many other Muslim countries, that he only need make accusations against her character or chastity to insure it will all go his way. She is left without recourse.

Hope this clears some of it up.

But still, GRRRR. :mad:

12

Thanks. That part, I understand. I just don’t understand how someone can argue that recognizing Shariah law would help this particular woman.

I can imagine that someone might want it to work the other way round - a person who has obtained a Shariah divorce could demand that this automatically translate into a civil divorce, without going through the judicial system. This *might * help a woman who feels unable to negotiate the Canadian judicial system due to language or cultural limitations. However, I think it would be far more likely to benefit a man who wants to take advantage of the unequal balance of power in Shariah law. I can easily imagine a man obtaining a Shariah divorce with greater ease and fewer restrictions (no obligation to pay child support, etc.) than a civil divorce. Overall, it seems like a bad idea.

13

Why can’t she pursue a religious divorce through her mosque or some other institution in the Muslim community? That’s how Jews handle the religious side of divorce in places where there is a distinction between religious and civil marriage. The community’s *beit din * (religious court) rules on whether or not conditions for divorce have been met. The divorcing couple still has to obtain a civil divorce (assuming that they also effected a civil marriage), but the beit din’s decree is sufficient to assuage anyone’s religious concerns.

Is there a similar mechanism in the Muslim community? Does Shariah say that only the national judicial system can decree that a couple is divorced?

14

Why not? Why can’t she seek a religious divorce that wouldn’t be civilly binding?

15

Is she unable to get a sharia-law divorce from a local Islamic association? Much like in America, where the legal and religious definitions of divorce and annulment might differ?

Why can’t she get a religious divorce? And if it would be so hard to get her a religious divorce in the absence of Canadian governmental interaction, what makes it so much more likely that she will not run into problems in Lebanon based merely on what some Canadian kaffirs said?

16

There is no Shariah court for her to seek it in here.

She could seek a civil divorce but that would have no standing in the eyes of the religious community in Lebanon. In their eyes she would still be bound to her husband and guilty of abducting his child without his consent. Very catch 22.

And, again, GRRR :mad:

17

That helps clear up my confusion. I feel for the woman but IMHO any government should have secular laws for all it’s citizens and religious laws should be kept separate. Christianity has similar issues with families not recognizing divorces that are legally granted because it seemed immoral to them on a religious basis. Let this bullshit be a motivation for people to dump that kind of religious crap and leave it behind. This is not for the Canadian government to resolve. If her family feels compelled to reject her that’s their fault. They need to work to change their own culture.

18

Why can’t the Muslim community in Canada establish a Shariah court for this kind of thing?
Can’t she, with the help of her family in Lebanon, apply for a religious divorce there and have it resolved before she moves back?

If not, as I said, it’s up to them to improve their own culture.

19

So her complaint is that Lebanon will not recognize a Canadian civil divorce, so in order for her to be considered divorced in Lebanon Canada should acknowledge Shariah? IOW, she wants not just a divorce, but divorce in the flavor of her choice, because that’s the only flavor some other country, not Canada, recognizes?

I have sympathy for her difficult situation, but no sympathy for this point of view. She wants to have her cake and to eat it too: She wants to get a divorce in the country that will grant it – Canada-- but under the Islamic law approved by the country that probably won’t grant it – Lebanon.

No dice, my unfortunate friend. You may either return to Lebanon and deal with your circumstances under the law there, or you may stay in Canada and deal with your circumstances under the law here. It is neither necessary nor wise for Canada to consider legitimizing or condoning these horrifically antiquated Sharia laws just because you want to return to country that recognizes them.

20

With the added irony that, even were it available in Canada, she wouldn’t be able to get it because her husband gets to say no if he wants to.