I agree that you can’t always train it out of them. However, you can breed it out of them, and people have been trying to do that for a long time. Not all pit bulls show the crazy aggression toward dogs that some do.
Daniel
You’re right about that. I never really called for an outright ban, and I don’t know if I could support it (mainly because it seems impractical, and I know it wouldn’t make an iota of difference around here).
But, I certainly wouldn’t fight it.
Also, I suspect that for every sane person trying to breed agression out of the breed, there’s at least one crazy mother fucker trying to breed more aggression into them.
No, it’s more like TEN “crazy mother fuckers trying to breed more aggression into them” for every sane breeder.
What makes you believe this is true?
Daniel
Your dog is not licensed? Why?
Is this dog park an actual dog park, or just a park where you and a bunch of other people let your dogs run around off of leashes?
Don’t you think the bolded statement kind of contradicts your expression that the breed is shit?
That said…pits have become a large problem. However, it’s the same problem that Rotts went through not long ago, Dobies went through in the 80’s and German Shepherds went through in the 70’s.
They’re one of the most popular “aggressive” breeds out there today, and to backyard breeders, that means cash. Alot of it. And these breeders don’t give two shits what they breed. They have zero problem breeding dogs with psychosis in their background to other dogs with psychosis in their backgrounds. You also have backyard breeders raising fighting dogs for illegal fighting, in which breeding psychotic dogs is preferred. What do you think happens to the dogs those people can’t sell to fighters, the ones that aren’t psychotic enough to sell to dog fighters?
That’s right, they get advertised in the newspaper and sold to unsuspecting people who just don’t know any better. And then those people, if they haven’t cared enough to research their breeders dogs, their dog’s background, etc…they’re sure as fuck not going to educate themselves about how absolutely vital TONS of socialization and proper training is, especially to an “aggressive” breed.
And you’ve obviously seen the results of that in the unprovoked attacks on your dog. The fact that this shit-for-brains thinks it’s acceptable in any way to have a pit off-lead around other dogs (pits aren’t especially known for dog-dog friendliness even when they’re bred well) just makes the issue that much worse.
Anyone who’d do a search linking my name and dogs here would know it’s no secret I absolutely LOATHE breed-specific bans…but I do think it wouldn’t be an awful idea to have controls as to those who wish own the most potentially dangerous breeds.
As to what those controls should be? I have several ideas, but sadly, animal control is a hugely underfunded segment of most city governments, so I’m really not sure how feasible they’d be.
I’d start with a larger licensing fee for specific “aggressive” breeds. Use that money to pay more animal control cops to patrol areas people tend to take their dogs. The dog doesn’t have it’s license? Confiscate it, and put it down, no second chances. You can’t responsibly put these dogs up for adoption, because the shelters have the same problem the people who buy them from backyard breeders do…you don’t and can’t know their background.
Every decade has it’s own popular “killer breed” as I stated earlier. Pits are actually somewhat on the decline…pits scare you?
Wait till Presa Canarios or Fila Brasileiros become the next “killer dog” of choice. Alot of dog breeders are thinking it’ll be the Presa that pulls ahead of the pack, so to speak. Presas are pits on steroids. Filas have been used to hunt jaguars, bears, boars, etc. and grow to over 200 pounds.
Both breeds can be great dogs…but awful, awful weapons in the wrong hands.
Preston disagrees*. The shelter I work for adopts out pit bulls fairly often: as long as the individual dog passes our temperament test, that’s fine.
We really don’t get a lot of bad owners wanting to adopt pit bulls, either. Why? Because all our animals are altered before they go into adoptions. Very few folks are looking for a dog who is both a killer and testicle-free.
Daniel
- Near as I can tell, Preston’s got some significant Staffordshire in him. “Pit bull” 'round these parts is used to refer to Staffordshires as well as to bull terriers.
I see dozens of ads at the various local pet stores for Pit Bulls from non registered breeders, mnay of which have some notation or other which indicates the pups are being sold as “killer” dogs. It’s “hip” it’s “urban” :rolleyes: .
I have never seen such an ad from a registered breeder.
Do the pet stores have ads for other breeds from registered breeders?
Daniel
Re shelters and pit bulls: I’m planning on adopting a pooch and have been keeping an eye on the Toronto Humane Society website for adoptable ones. Every time I look, the huge majority are pit bulls or “pit bull mixes.” (And cute! Look at those faces. How could anyone resist?) It breaks my heart to see so many of them in there because I know most people would choose a different breed, meaning many of them will never find nice homes.
Before reading this thread I had assumed that this is because of the recent pit bull ban our overlords in Ontario have recently brought in, combined with people’s reluctance to adopt pits with unknown lineage. Left Hand of Dorkness, I am very reassured by your statement that they are just as adoptable as other dogs. Would you adopt a shelter pit bull? Would you recommend one to someone like me, who has never had a dog on my own (ie not a family dog) before?
(If the answers are yes, we have only to convince my husband, and then a pit bull will be mine!)
On occasion, yes. The majority of the ads (dogs for sale) are either mixed-breed “mutts” (more or less “free to good home”) and unregistered PitBulls. There’s a couple local registered breeders of Chihuahuas and Papilons that I see.
cowgirl- Pitbulls can be very sweet doggies. However, you don’t know where these came from, thus I’d suggest “no” unless you are very good at socializing dogs, and have no small kids. I’d say that anyone real good with dogs- who has time to spend- could take just about any PB puppy and turn out a sweet family pet. It doesn’t seem like you have that kind of experience?
Note- dudes without experience should also avoid Malamutes, St Bernards (health problems), Rotts, Dobies, “wolf mixes” and some other very large dogs- the last because a very large dog (Great dane) can cause unexpected problems just becuase they are “very large”.
On the other side- be careful of small “toy” breeds also. Some are very bad tempered. And, some dudes- thinking that the dog is very small so it doesn’t matter- will let their small dog become the 'alpha dog"- and it is very important that the Human be the “alpha dog”. I have seen some small dogs ruined by it’s human letting the dog “run the show” as"ahh he’s so cute". (This is also so super critical with Wolf-mixes and some husky-like dogs that I can’t emphasize it enough- the human MUST be the alpha-“dog”.)
I would sooner approach a stable and friendly-appearing pit bull out for a walk with its owner, than I would a Chihuahua.
Here’s an example of why.
Caution: gruesome link.
Seriously, temperament or size vastly affect the destructive potential of dogs with mental problems. There’s too much that can happen when a pit goes bad, for there not to be restrictions that don’t affect most other breeds. Maybe in the future when we can DNA profile dogs at the time of licensure, this will change…
I recently read Marley and Me, about an off-the-wall Labrador retriever (basically destructive, not vicious). There were uncanny similarities to our first dog - a cocker spaniel. If I’d had to deal with 65 extra pounds of manic canine neurosis, I don’t know what I would have been forced to do (our current Labrador, who has 20 pounds on Marley, is very sweet-tempered and well-behaved).
It has been my opinion that the “wrong” kind of owner of a pit bull is looking for an extension of their own bad-assed-ness - in the same way that the person is tougher (even if not bigger) than anybody else they meet, so too is their dog tougher than any other dog. (This is just my conjecture, so I would love to get a more informed opinion regarding owners who, while not intending to fight their dogs, also don’t insure their proper socialization and control.)
It must bother responsible PB owners to have undesirables owning “their” breed and tarnishing its reputation - for those of you who support/defend PB personalities, what solution would you propose to the perception that a disproportionate number of dog and human attacks are attributable to PBs?
It’s the owner making bad decisions about a potentially dangerous breed. Sure, a Pekingese can become, or be made, vicious, if you try real hard. But if it does, it’s still of a size that a normal adult can pull it away on a leash. A dog like a pit bull can become so strong, and so intense, that it’s very difficult to control. If, despite appropriate training, it becomes dangerous, the owner MUST either be able to keep it away from all other persons or animals, or MUST euthanize it.
Years ago we got a St. Bernard puppy. The vet told us that this breed is almost always incredibly gentle and trainable. But, he added, every once in a while one turns “rough.” Those dogs are usually the larger males. They also are not fully matured until about 2 years old, and at that time the rough nature comes through. If this happens, he said, you MUST be prepared to put the animal down, because a 200-pound animal that is mean and out of control is just too dangerous to deal with. Fortunately, our dog remained entirely sweet and gentle during her all-too-brief life.
The same thing is true of pits and any other dog. If it becomes dangerous (and the one in the OP certainly is) it should be euthanized, and if the owner is unwilling to do so the authorities should see to it. The next bite might well be someone’s dear child who just wanted to play with the puppies in the park.
All I can think of is actually have people spend some time with some properly trained pits. Maybe go to “dog events” (my city has a pet fair every few months at a local park with trainers doing demonstrations, vendors, the SPCA etc) and just have a booth set up.
And I don’t care what anyone says, pit puppies are some of the cutest lil guys ever. 
We have regularly walked our dog past a house with a cement block wall around it. The heights are graduated. The first section (I’m guessing) is about 4’6" high, the next is about 5’, the last is about 5’ 6". My dog has a great sense of “something ain’t right” and gets upset when we pass by this wall. I finally realized why one night when I saw a dog’s head clear the lowest section- quietly. It was a pit bull. Freaked me out, but my boyfriend said there’s no way that dog can get over the wall. So we’ve walked by a few more times, fewer than normal, because of my worry. Until the other night. This time, the dog’s head cleared the highest section, and that was all I needed to see. It seems like that dog is quietly trying to make its way over the wall, and who knows what will happen when he/she makes it. Scares me to death. I won’t go past there again.
Honestly? No, I wouldn’t. First off, I don’t own any dogs, haven’t had one since I was eighteen, and even then it was mostly my dad’s dog whom I didn’t much like. I’m far from a dog expert (although working at the humane society means I know more than most other non-dog-owners). And pit bulls probably ought to go to homes with folks who are really good with dogs.
Second, pit bulls, because of their potential for agression, really oughtta have a lot of training. I mean, all dogs should be well-trained, but if you’ve got a Boston Terrier, the chance of tragedy striking due to inadequate training isn’t quite as immediate. It’s the difference in caution you need to have with a needle and the caution you must exercise with a razor-sharp butcher-knife. I don’t have the time or resources to provide a pit bull with that much training.
Third, I’ve got cats. If I adopted a pit bull and it decided to treat one of my cats like a chew toy, breaking its neck in the process, I’d have trouble forgiving myself. In looking at pit bull sites, they generally recommend not bringing one into a home with other small animals.
And that doesn’t get into the social reasons. I’m not especially interested in paying an insurance premium or in scaring my elderly neighbors.
You’ll note that these are all pretty personal reasons. I’ve known folks with pit bulls who were wonderful owners for them. I just don’t think that I would be.
Daniel
I’d like to just add agreement to a lot of the points mentioned–In particular, Pit Bulls (Staffordshire Terriers, to be precise) are often bred for dog-aggressiveness, and it’s going to take a decade and change of unpopularity before we start seeing their temperments become closer to dog normal again (see: Rottweilers).
And really, unless you’re an experienced dog owner, you shouldn’t have any dog breed bred as a guard or fighting dog until you are 100% sure you can handle it. You should ALSO worry about any type of killing or prey-aggressive dog, which includes the smaller terriers and dauschunds (my wife see an insane amount of bites from tiny dogs in her job as a receptionist at a vet)
Oftentimes the easiest dogs to work with are retrievers, spaniels, and labs of varying types. My first dog was a formerly abused black lab+mastiff mix, and she was a real sweetheart once my then-girlfriend and I got her socialized–but even then she was moderately dog-aggressive and she was at the very limit of small enough to control by force.
I guess the bottom line is that dogs need to be treated with respect for their breeds–pits need to not be exposed to other dogs without long-term training, terriers shouldn’t be in homes with babies and/or small pets due to prey-aggressiveness, chows should be kept only by people willing to deal with the one mainstream breed that’s truly human-aggressive by nature, etc etc etc.
The problem is both the owners and the breed, but the breed’s problems are managable with a good attentive owner (and that includes not tempting the dogs with situations designed to put breeding and training in conflict, like letting a pit off-leash in a dog park with strange dogs)
The important thing to remember is that you never deal with the breed: you deal with an individual dog. Beagles have never (to my knowledge) been bred for human-aggression, but that beagle I met when I was seven was a psycho.
There are some lines of pit bulls that have not been bred for human aggression (at least, not for many years); you’ll find that these have got a normal doggy temperament. The problem is, there’s no way by looking at them that you can tell these individual pits from the individuals descended from a line of fighting dogs.
Daniel
Sadly, when I go running or take my dog for a walk, I have to keep my handgun with me because some idiot’s untrained, unleashed dog could possibly attack me or my pet. When I think about how many times I’ve dealt with unleashed dogs while out and about, it seems absurd. Once when jogging, I passed by a guy at least 50 feet or so from me. When his dog growled at me he started to encourage the dog saying, “go get him! go get him!”. I stopped, turn to where he could see the piston and told him if the dog came toward me I would kill it. He left with no further comment.
I’m not going to try and stop a dogfight, lecture the owner or call animal control. If my leashed pet or myself are attacked, I’m going to end it right there. An uncontrolled dog can be a lethal weapon and should be dealt with as such.