10 million anecdotes about dogs who bite or kill is meaningless unless you can accurately and reliably identify the breed of these dogs. Show me the pedigrees. A pit mix is as much whatever other kids of dogs are in the mix as it is a pit.
Reputable organizations no longer track bites based on breeds because they know how unreliable breed identification is. That is what kills your argument, and cougar knows it. Continuing to post news stories about dogs that bite or kill will never overcome this fatal flaw in the logic. It’s an appeal to emotion, nothing more.
The link to Best Friends apology for turning their back on Vicks pit bull, allowing to run over and kill another dog named Beans, from Best Friends own website
In any case we are dealing with an extremely small n here, roughly 20 fatal bites across the whole United States per year. About 3 a year in the U.K., roughly 1/10th the number of people who die from drowning in their bathtubs.
Interpreting any legislation’s effects on such small numbers is difficult. That said …
Spain enacted a Dangerous Animal Act targetting specific breeds and found no effect. Britain’s similar law also had no effect.
A decent review documenting the futility of breed specific legislation here. Note the groups signed on opposing such laws. From the American Vetinary Association to the Law Bar to various national level kennel clubs. Note the multiple studies that have shown no effect of such laws (despite some cherry picked anecdotes put up here).
Betty Todd, 65-years old, was brutally killed by her son’s pit bull while babysitting his three children in January 2013
Officials said that Todd’s son told deputies that his mother had been to the home numerous times around the animal without the dog ever showing any signs of aggression toward her.
Christian Gormanous, 4-years old, of Conroe TX, was mauled to death by his neighbor’s chained pit bull., also in January. Animal Control took possession of the pit bull. Animal Control conforms it is a pit bull, and the owner doesn’t contest this.
Elsie Grace, of Hemut, CA, 91-years old, was discovered dead in a hotel room after being mauled to death by her son’s two pit bulls.
Jeff Sheppard, the president and CEO of the Ramona Humane Society, which has the animal control contract for the City of Hemet, suggested the woman was dead before the attack and that the dogs licked her to try to wake her up. Sheppard makes no mention of the nature of the attack described by police as inflicting a “great deal of trauma.” As typical, another city-funded humane group is awash in pit bull apologia in the instant wake of a brutal fatal pit bull mauling.
Note that he confirms the dogs he has in possession at the Humane Society are in fact pit bulls, and the owner has not claimed they were anything other than pit bulls.
Isaiah Aguilar, 2-years old, was struck down by his neighbor’s pit bull, in Texas.
Note animal control took possession of the dog, confirming it was a pit bull, and the owner never contested this.
Ryan Maxwell, 7-years old, was attacked and killed by a pit bull while visiting family friends at a home in Galesburg, IL in March 2013.
The owner confirms it was a pit bull, that she raised – “never to be mean or violent”
Also in March, in Wisconson, a babysitters 2 pit bulls THAT WERE SPAYED / NEUTERED, killed the toddler she was babysitting. They also attacked the babysitter, who turned her back on them (take note, Zellier)
The babysitter told police they were her PIT BULLS. The city took the dogs, further confirming this.
Monica Laminack, 21-months old, was mauled to death by a pack of family pit bulls in the backyard of her home in Georgia, also in March 2013.. The mother is facing charges, and she has yet to claim the media, Police and Bryan County Animal Control were wrong in identifying them as pit bulls.
April 2013 Tyler Jett, 7-years old, of Florida, was brutally attacked by two pit bull-mix dogs while playing in the front yard of his home on April 2. The two dogs, owned by Edward Daniels II, 21-years old, escaped their owner’s fenced-in property prior to attacking. Tyler did not regain consciousness while in intensive care. He died five days after the attack. Authorities subsequently upgraded the charges against Daniels to manslaughter. The police and animal control identified them as pit bulls. The owner, facing manslaughter charges, has yet to deny they were pit bulls.
Also in April Claudia Gallardo, 38-years old, of Stockton CA, was mauled to death by a “big, nasty pit bull,” according to Sgt. Tom Rees of the San Joaquin County Sheriff’s Office. The owner of the dog, Brian Hrenko, after being detained and questioned by police, admitted that the victim had been to his home at least once before and had interacted well with his dog. Hrenko at no time contested the police / animal control / media reports that his dog was a pit bull
Also in April, yet another babysitters pit bull kills a child. Odd behavior for a Nanny Dog. Jordyn Arndt, 4-years old, was viciously mauled by her babysitter’s pit bull while under her care in Iowa. The babysitters family told police it was a pit bull. Police had the dog, as did animal control, to further confirm this.
Also in April, Beau Rutledge, 2-years old, was savagely killed by his family’s pit bull (identified as a pit bull by police and Fulton County animal control. The family had owned the pit bull, named Kissy Face, for eight years. Not only does the father confirm it was a pit bull, he tells the media “Those dogs cannot be domesticated. They cannot,”
The above is a chronological list of every fatal dog attack by any breed, from January through April. However, only pit bulls were responsible for all of these fatal attacks.
10 attacks that were fatal in just the first 4 months of this year. Pit bulls were responsible for all 10.
100%. That’s not anecdotal
Do you really want me to list and cite the remaining 5 fatal pit bull attacks so far in 2013? The good news, is there was finally a fatal by a German Shepherd. It did look like pit bulls were going for 100% of all fatals in 2013.
This isn’t anecdotal , Miss Elizabeth. These are hard core facts. Data. With verified identification, by police, animal control and, yes, even the owners.
In every year but one since 2006, there have been over 30 fatals in the USA. Last year there were 38.
2012 = 38 (pit bulls alone were 23, higher than your “average” of all breeds)
2011 = 31 (pit bulls alone were 22, higher than your “average” of all breeds)
2010 = 33 (pit bulls alone were 22, higher than your “average” of all breeds)
2009 = 32 (pit bulls 14 - almost 50%)
2008 = 23 (the only year less than 30, pits had 15, or 65%)
2007 = 35 (pit bulls alone were 21, higher than your “average” of all breeds)
2006 = 31 (pit bulls 18 - more than 58%)
that’s an average of 32 per year, NOT 20.
In fact, pit bulls alone average 20%
Pit Bull bans greatly reduce fatal and near fatal (think: multiple amputations)
They absolutely have zero effect on bite totals. In fact they very well may go up, as the people who can’t own killer pit bulls, instead suffer minor bites.
PS you say the UK ban (where pit bulls originated) isn’t effective, but then you list the total UK fatals as 3 per year. Hello?
The UK population is 63 million. The USA is 300 million. last year the USA had 38 fatal attacks, divide that by 5 (UK factor) and you get 8 fatals (rounded). If the UK only has 3, I would say their BSL is very effective. That’s almost 1/3rd the rate as in the USA.
Unless you have pedigrees, they are completely anecdotal.
You clearly do not understand the difference between anecdote and data. You also have a poor grasp of how dog breeding works, and basic genetics. These things can be learned, but you have to want to learn.
As I said, 10 million anecdotes about dogs who bite or kill is meaningless unless you can accurately and reliably identify the breed of these dogs. Show me the pedigrees.
Again the report of the breed is well established to be a work of fiction in most cases other than using a very liberal definition of looking vaguely Pit-like and having bitten.
My cite, given before, was the most recent official data from the CDC published in 2004. Yours is perhaps the anti Pit Bull “dogsbite.org”?
But sure go with 30. Go with 40 even. In a country of 314,000,000, with over 70,000,000 dogs and literally billions of human dog interactions? That is a tiny n. 40 averages less than one a state per year. Judging the efficacy of an intervention or lack of one is difficult with such a small n, even if one managed to identify and control for potential confounders. Still let’s look at some states with and without the laws.
New York - no breed specific legislation. Rate of fatal dog attacks? 0.0259.
Florida? Also rare but higher: 0.0753.
Kentucky with Breed specific legislation throughout most of the state? 0.1164
West Virginia also has many districts with breed specific legislation. By incidence rate it’s number three highest, 0.2715. Yes almost 4 times as high as breed specific legislation free NYC.
Virgina with no BSL higher than the national average of 0.0823 at 0.1142 but still less than half that of its sister state with BSL to the NW.
Oh California, bemoaned by you, cougar, for all its bite fatalities due to all those allowed Pit Bulls? Lower than the national average at 0.0760.
Meanwhile this from the investigative team of the National Canine Research Council. Those “family dogs” involved in dog bite fatalities? Not your family pets.
Yes, no doubt, some scum who keep dogs like that are attracted to ill-bred muscular dogs of the Pit Bull general look that will get called Pits whether they have much Pit in them or not.
But breed specific legislation has no evidence of any meaningful impact and is aiming at the wrong target.
The incidence in the UK, btw, is about the same as in the US. UK dog population about8 million. In the US about 70 million. 11% of the dog population and about the same percent of the fatal dog bite numbers per year.* After having banned “dangerous breeds” over 20 years ago and by all accounts having reduced their numbers in UK dramatically. And since there has been an apparent uptick there in serious (not fatal) attacks the Brits are changing the target. Now the focus is less on the breed and more on the owner.
Oh, and also … using the fictive 40 fatal dog bite incidents a year it is true for the US as well - ten times as many people drown in their own bathtubs each year. No one drowned in a shower … up for banning bathtubs?
Statistics don’t hurt. Idiots misusing and not understanding statistics hurt.
*Honestly I am shocked it is about the same given the cultural differences between the countries.
I apologize pre-emptively for what can be read as implying that you are an idiot in this forum. That was wrong of me. Leave it at that misuse and misunderstanding of statistics hurt. Your IQ may be HUGE.
Did you even read your own cite? In is from 12 years ago, 2001, NOT 2004.
All it does it break down deaths from different types of injuries. Nothing about any breed.
ABC news says home insurance claims for dog bites are at half a billion, and thats up 50% since your report above. Get current, or get out. 1/3rd of all home claims are for dog bites. And most of those are the ones involving plastic surgery - and you see my two links from 2 dozen doctors from 2 major hospitals that claim pit bulls far exceed any other breed for fatals and reconstructive surgery.
FYI I see that BADRAP, the pit bull site, just weeks ago finally admitted that pit bulls were never “Nanny dogs” - and that it was a myth that was invented.
I suggest you actually look at what you are talking about. Top of the page.
(Really, you embarrass yourself.)
The more recent reports from the CDC’s National Vital Statistics Sysytems do not seem to bother reporting the number of dog bite fatalities (or at least I cannot find them). I assume they did not make the cut as being a significant enough issue to bother reporting on in an ongoing basis.
Yes, the number I quoted was not about what breed someone claimed they thought a dog was. The point made was about how the total number of dog bite fatalities in the United States is a very small number, such that many states will not even have a single such case each year and that making any kind of conclusion about any sort of correlation or intervention is questionable at best when looking at such small ns.
If we were to try to make such correlations then one would logically conclude from the fact that many states with breed specific laws have fatality incidence almost 4 times as high as states with no such laws that breed specific laws cause an increase in dog bite fatalities. Me, I wouldn’t say that. I recognize that there are many confounding variables between states and regions.
I would however conclude that there is no reason to believe that breed specific legislation does anything to stop even one of those, call it 32ish, deaths across the country each year.
Since banning Pits is NOT associated with saving any lives at all you now want to move the goalpost to serious injuries? Again, Miami-Dade with its breed specific ban, has MORE serious injuries than the state as a whole. Insurance claims are up for more* all* bites in households? I’ll defer to your claim was that bans
The claim that breed specific ban laws decrease harm is unsupported. If anything they cause harm as they detract from taking other more meaningful action.
Go back to your walls of cherry picked anecdotes … you will be able to find them, as I was able to find many anecdotes of Pits saving lives.
Let me expose for all to see, the actual denial in progress, in a pit bull deniers mind.
Dsied claims the report is data from 2004; I say its from 2001.
2004 is NOT when the data was collected. The very next line, in fact the largest text font in the article, and the leading title for the report, says:
“Surveillance for Fatal and Nonfatal Injuries — United States, 2001”
In the next paragraph, titled “Abstract”:
“This report summarizes national data on fatal and nonfatal injuries in the United States for 2001”
the very next line:
“Reporting Period: January–December 2001.”
3rd paragraph in the Abstract:
“Results: In 2001, approximately…”
Under the very next topic, the “Introduction”:
very first line -
“In 2001, a total of 157,078 persons died from”
2 lines later:
" In 2001, an estimated 29.7 million injured persons …"
very next topic, titled “Methods”, first line:
“Data represent all injury-related deaths on the basis of all death certificates filed in 2001 …”
Same paragraph:
“In 2001, approximately 17% of firearm-related…”
Under “Statistical Methods”
" were calculated by using 2001 bridged race population…"
and
“a different series of 2001 bridged race population estimates was used”
under “results”:
“In 2001, a total of 157,078 persons…”
Under “Discussion”:
“in 2001, approximately 157,000 persons died as a result of…”
" 0.5% of the estimated 29.7 million injuries treated in hospital EDs in 2001…"
Under “Conclusion”
“Overall, in 2001, an estimated 0.5% of injured persons…”
Under “Table 1” , table 1 is dated 2001
So is Table 1, figure 1 “2001”
Table 2 = “2001”
Table 2, figure 2 = “2001”
Table 3 = “2001”
Figure 2 = “2001”
In fact, all remaining tables, tables 1 thru 19, and all figures, 1 thru 26, are dated “2001”
No table nor figure is more recent than 2001.
“2001” occurs 31 times in this report.
2004 appears at the top, as this is the date the article was posted.
2013 appears on the date Dsied posted this antiquated report to SMDB. That in no way supersedes the date (2001) of virtually every form of data in the report.
Embarrassed much?
Denial isn’t a river in Africa. It’s a river that flows in every pit bull lovers mind.
Actually, there’s a simple solution here. If we uthanize all dogs, there would be no more killings by dogs.
Because, if we just get rid of the Pit Bulls, there will still be dog attacks. The only way to completely prevent them is to kill all dogs (since dog attacks would probably be the biggest proportion of deaths caused by animal attacks).
Of course, after that, there would be the next biggest cause of animal attacks causing death, and we’d have to eliminate that possibility too.
Because obviously, we’re trying to eliminate the major cause of deaths by animal attack here, regardless of the probability of a deadly animal attack. That is, the fact that the vast, vast majority of all pitbulls are not involved in attacks is unimportant. By the same logic, the fact that the vast, vast majority of dogs in general are not involved would be unimportant.
Killing all dogs also avoids the problem that if we outlaw pit bulls, the problem will just shift to some new breed meant for dogfights (as pointed out repeatedly above).
I’m looking at my cute little Louie, a 1yo rescue. White shorthair with black spots, he might be part Dalmation or English or Lewellen setter – not sure what he is but he sure is sweet. I’ll miss him, poor little fella.
I said “published in …” and you chose to pretend you had a gotcha and “corrected” me. Yes the data they published was from 2001. That is the most recent data they published that I can find anyway … published in 2004.
As if it would matter anyway. The issue is how small the n is, even if that n was 40.
That there is no evidence that breed specific bans would prevent any of those deaths. Conversely it must be noted that the number of lives saved by having these dogs is a non-zero number (see anecdotes) and more likely that not some number of home invasions and attacks have been prevented by having a scary looking and sounding dog around (probably more than by defensive gun use anyway!) Lots? Probably not. But across the country a few dozen a year? That’s a tiny number and I’d say that such is probable.
How many Pit Bull bite deaths did Miami Dade have in the decade before the ban again? Oh yes. Zero. One dog bite death and it was not by a Pit Bull. And they’ve had one fatal attack since, already cited in this thread, also not from even a dog claimed to be a Pit. Improvement is zip. And, again, they have more dog bite injuries than the rest of the state that does not have such a ban. With many dogs killed and at some significcant expense.
How about Denver? The same lack of improvement and the same one death associated with a non-Pit Bull attack since the ban. The same nearly zero they had before. Meanwhile Portland, about the same size about the same time, implemented an animal control law based on behavior - NO deaths since. Sure, not statisitcally significant with these small ns but if anything NOT doing breed bans has given better results.
Ignore these facts all you want. Tell your fictions if you want. Reduce yourself to ggetting exciting because you think, in your lack or reading skills, that you caught someone saying 2004 when it was actually 2001, as if that would have anything to do with the point even if it was correct. Or give it up.
65% of the pit bull attacks resulting in someone being killed or maimed during the past 30 years have occurred during the past 10 years.
39% of the pit bull attacks resulting in someone being killed or maimed during the past 30 years have occurred during the past four years alone
14% of the total attacks occurred in the last year alone, and 26% in the past two years.
61% of the pit bull attacks on children have occurred in the past 10 years; 37% in the past four years;
24% in the past two years.
65% of the pit bull attacks on adults have occurred in the past 10 years;
39% in the past four years;
27% in the past two years.
71% of the pit bull fatalities have occurred in the past 10 years;
42% in the past four years;
24% in the past two years.
66% of the pit bull disfigurements have occurred in the past 10 years; 41% in the past four years;
29% in the past two years.
These cumulative trends are not within the possibilities of chance. They show a situation which has slipped out of any semblance of control, even compared to the situation of 10 years ago.
As far as your counterpoint that Miami & Denver had zero pit bull fatals in the decade (1970’s) prior to their ban, moot point. And outdated.
Pit Bulls have averaged 20 of the 31 fatals since 2006.
In 2013, they were at 100% thru the first four months, with 10 fatals. 2013 isn’t half over, and they are at 15 (16 counting the guy in MD would opted to run in front of a car while being chased by a pit bull). They are on track to kill 30 humans in 2013 alone.
Ken Philips, of dogbitelaw.com, the nations #1 attorney for dog attacks, was adamant that it was the owner, not the breed… Until 2013, when pits were 100% for all fatals in the first 4 months, with a record of 10 fatals just 1/3rd into the year.
He now states pit bulls should be recalled, just like the Chrysler’s with the recent fuel tank issues.
cite: It’s Time for the Pit Bull “Recall” Too - dogbitelaw
word of caution: in the above link, Philips refers to pit bull deniers as the “N” word I used here (rhymes with butter)- until the SDMB admins told me I would be banned if I used it again.
Attorney Kenneth M. Phillips of Beverly Hills, California, is the only lawyer in the USA who does nothing other than represent people who have been seriously injured by dogs. Widely recognized as the nation’s leading authority on dog bite law, and the author of Dogbitelaw.com, he assists legislators in drafting dog bite laws, teaches seminars, and writes books and articles about dog bite law. He has been a frequent guest on CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, MS-NBC, and Fox News, and has been called “the dog bite king” (Today Show and Lawyers Weekly), “a leading expert in dog bite law” (Good Housekeeping), and “the nation’s best known practitioner of terrier torts” (Los Angeles Times).)
I am truly sorry to report that a 5 year old girl was just killed by a relatives pit bull in South Carolina today.
I will post a link, which has photos of the very obvious pit bull.
And no, Miss Elizabeth, despite once again having photos, and the police, and the animal control, and yes, the dreaded media, and even the owners, all in a universal conspiracy to claim it was a pit bull, I do not have the pedigree certified documents.