Pitbulls

Great Debates
361

[quote=“Zeriel, post:355, topic:657969”]

Because my child is a few hundred times more likely to die from the fact I have aspirin, a bathtub, or a backyard than the fact I have a pit bull? Hell, crib accidents cause an order of magnitude more child deaths than dogs.

The actual risk of a harmful or fatal pit bull attack is infinitesimally small, given the relatively large population of pits and pit mixes out there. It’s literally hundreds of times more risky to bathe your child in a tub than to own a pit bull.

It’s honestly as bad as the gun debate anymore–even if we just wildly assume every single fatal dog attack was a pit bull, you’re still talking about something like 1 in 200,000 pit bulls who perpetrates a fatal attack (given current estimates of between 3 and 7 million pits and pit mixes currently extant in the US).
Using your logic, , chances of a child getting shot with her fathers loaded gun is very small…so therefore it’s defendable to have loaded guns around kids.
The risk of a out bull attack may be small, but compared to other breeds it isn’t infinitesimal and I don’t know why one would choose that breed with children , knowing that it has the highest rate of serious attacks, and whenever they attack you hear the same thing, “but he was so sweet”

362

So, by your “logic”, I should keep my maltese that actually has bitten children, but not adopt the 8 year old pitbull-type mix that has lived happily in a family all it’s life.

And this is sane to you?

363

From my link:
*"Nephi’s aunt, Iona Keanaaina, said she never saw the dog display aggressive behavior.

“He played with kids, very obedient, he was never allowed in the house, stayed right at the door, so we never had any problems with him at all, took him around with us, my kids loved him,” Keanaaina said.*"

364

Pretty much I think that’s it. I chose the gun argument carefully–I note how she goes directly to “leaving a loaded gun out” rather than any example of responsible, risk-aware gun (or dog) ownership.

Meanwhile, if cougar58 ever actually cites any real source, I think the internet will shut off in shock.

365

Anyone with even a superficial understanding of what might be meant by a dog’s “temperament”, as opposed to how “dangerous” a dog is, now understands you don’t know enough about the topic to comment on it besides pasting walls of unformatted text from, surprise surprise, random sources.

Higher temperament scores indicated stability, which indicates both predictability and response to training. In my experience with a rather wide variety of dog breeds, the ATTS averages are a very good predictor of how well a dog will respond to training to eliminate undesirable behaviors and retain that training in a wide variety of circumstances.

I’ve trained dangerous dogs and abused dogs. I’ve also trained pit bulls. I know which ones I would never turn my back on, and it wasn’t the pits.

366

Damn those stats that show they kill and maim almost 50% more . also pretend that they weren’t bred for fighting.

367

I posted cites on this very forum in the first 4 pages:

From the “Annal of Surgery” report in 2011, authored by 4 MD’s, one PhD, and 3 RN’s

http://journals.lww.com/annalsofsurg...s_Dogs.23.aspx

"Objective: Maiming and death due to dog bites are uncommon but preventable tragedies. We postulated that patients admitted to a level I trauma center with dog bites would have severe injuries and that the gravest injuries would be those caused by pit bulls.

Design: We reviewed the medical records of patients admitted to our level I trauma center with dog bites during a 15-year period. We determined the demographic characteristics of the patients, their outcomes, and the breed and characteristics of the dogs that caused the injuries.

Results: Our Trauma and Emergency Surgery Services treated 228 patients with dog bite injuries; for 82 of those patients, the breed of dog involved was recorded (29 were injured by pit bulls). Compared with attacks by other breeds of dogs, attacks by pit bulls were associated with a higher median Injury Severity Scale score (4 vs. 1; P = 0.002), a higher risk of an admission Glasgow Coma Scale score of 8 or lower (17.2% vs. 0%; P = 0.006), higher median hospital charges ($10,500 vs. $7200; P = 0.003), and a higher risk of death (10.3% vs. 0%; P = 0.041).

Conclusions: Attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs. Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the US mortality rates related to dog bites."

368

and on the same page:

Pediatric dog bite injuries: a 5-year review of the experience at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia shows pit bulls responsible for more than half of the maulings

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
The objective of this study was to characterize the nature of dog bite injuries treated over a 5-year period at a large tertiary pediatric hospital and to identify relevant parameters for public education and injury prevention.
METHODS:
Investigators performed a retrospective review of emergency room records of a single tertiary pediatric hospital. Records of all patients who were evaluated for dog bite injuries between April of 2001 and December of 2005 were reviewed. All demographic, patient, and injury details were recorded.
RESULTS:
Five hundred fifty-one patients aged 5 months to 18 years were treated in the emergency department after suffering dog bite injuries during the study period. The majority of injuries (62.8 percent) were sustained by male children. Dog bite injuries were most prevalent during the months of June and July (24.1 percent). Grade school-aged children (6 to 12 years) constituted the majority of victims (51 percent), followed by preschoolers (2 to 5 years; 24.0 percent), teenagers (13 to 18 years; 20.5 percent), and infants (birth to 1 year; 4.5 percent). Injuries sustained by infants and preschoolers often involved the face (53.5 percent), whereas older children sustained injuries to the extremities (60.7 percent). More than 30 different offending breeds were documented in the medical records. The most common breeds included pit bull terriers (50.9 percent), Rottweilers (8.9 percent), and mixed breeds of the two aforementioned breeds (6 percent).
CONCLUSIONS:
Pediatric dog bites are preventable injuries, yet they persist as a prevalent public health problem. Evaluation of data from high-volume tertiary pediatric health care institutions identifies predictable patterns of injury with respect to patient age and gender, animal breed, provocation, and seasonality

369

They just released the photo of both the pit bull and the kid it killed. Maybe Zeriel, who “needs a picture of the alleged pit bull” will educate us based on this photo from the family, if this was anything other than a pit bull. Golden retriever perhaps? Poodle? Cocker Spaniel?

Oh, and by the way, herrrrrre’s your link

370

Zeriel, here is another link from today:

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/06/pitbull-seriously-injures-two-in-glen-burnie-90442.html

A family pet pit bull just put two adults, who were watching the dog for their child (who owned it) are now, as we speak, in the Trauma center in Baltimore, both with severe injuries.

Typical only of pit bull attacks,** the mauling only stopped when police arrived and killed the family pet**, as it was still mauling the female adult.

To be perfectly clear, these would have been 2 more fatal attacks by pit bulls this year, had the police not used deadly force. This was a multiple fatal attack by a family pit bull, rudely interrupted by those pesky police.

The National Canine Research Council, or NCRC, that pit bull lovers often cite, was formed by Karen Delise, a former Vet Tech, who authored a book called “the pit bull placebo” and dedicate the book, in the preface, to her own pit bull. Her only reference to police interaction with pit bulls, is her claim that " police ride into town with both guns blazing, shooting anything that looks like a pit bull" She says not one word about the hundreds, if not thousands, of heroic cases like the one above, where the police used deadly force to save a pit bull owner from their own pit bull, while putting their own lives on the line.
Note that Maryland is the only state that declares all pit bulls vicious. All pit bulls.

Zeriel, its over. The tactics of the NCRC, and the ATTS have been exposed. They are run by people who state in writing, in their own words, they are anti BSL. and pro pit bull.

The book, “the pit bull placebo” is available free as a pdf - just google it. I am no longer providing links for people in denial. Go find it yourself, before you suggest I have no supporting evidence.

371

Cougar, do you understand the concept “anecdotes are not date” and reject it, or is the idea itself foreign to you?

372

Exactly and totally wrong. Each anecdote is one piece of data.
But she at least has some anecdotes. You have nothing but your opinion.

373

No, DD. One anecdote is not one datum and, as is oft repeated here, “the plural of anecdote is not data.”

Dueling anecdotes is not debate; it is a waste of time.

Having read some of the screed posted in the subsequent pages I’ll stand by my first post in this thread.

If one wants to reduce the number of serious dog bites the targets should be the problem owners, un-neutered male dogs, and animals with a history of problem behaviors.

Work hard at that and reduce fatal dog bites by maybe 50% and you’ll save a few lives, maybe a dozen. See table 8. Among causes of fatal nonintentional injury the only cause less than the 25 caused by dog bites is the 8 caused by overexertion. Drowning and poisoning in comparison are 3281 and 14078. Still worth it. But you’d do a lot more good focusing energy on decreasing poisoning and drowning deaths by evan a small percentage.

Of course if you feel that any deaths due to dog bites are too many you could eliminate them by eliminating all dogs … although of course then only the criminals will own them. :slight_smile:

374

That is an interesting Internet meme that is often false. When you are collecting crime DATA, each crime is one piece of data. Thus, each dog attack is data, just like each murder is data.

But, taking data vs anecdote aside, cougar at least has cites. Miss ElizaBeth has nothing but her own unsupported opinion.

Even if all cougar had was a single pit bull attack article, that is 1000 times better that unsupported opinion.

Now, that being said, you raise other interesting points. But, I have said here ( and at City meetings, ect)’ that what is needed in NOT breed specific laws, but a requirement that all dogs, of any breed, not belonging to licensed breeders must be neutered.

All dogs. Yes, this will cut back on dog attacks, from any breed, and also reduce the huge surplus of dogs in our pounds and shelters. Honestly, it would break your heart to see those little furry faces and wagging tails, who just want someone to take them home and love them.

I do say PB are more dangerous, but mainly due to the assholes who raise them to be mean. Take the dogs away from the dog fighting assholes and we have made a step towards a better America for both dogs and humans.

375

No. A report of a murder in the news, several reports of murders in the news, is not data about murder. They are anecdotes. Many reports of missing little White girls is not data. Not about crime anyway. Maybe if coupled with accurate data about how many kids of all races and both genders go missing and all news reports are tabulated it would count, as data pertinent to a reporting bias. Data is part of a systemic effort to collect meaningful information that can be used to develop an accurate picture of the world and to make predictions about it. Anecdotes are not.

Real crime data is of course real data and is subject to important interpretations. The cougars of the world would take statistics that show many murders are committed by Blacks, buttress it with news reports of crimes committed by Blacks, and argue that Blacks are dangerous. Ignorant use of statistics and of anecdotes. No a report of one attack is not better than an intelligent opinion and reasoned analysis.

376

This person is 100% correct.

377

So in other words, in an area (in which I currently live, by the by) chock-full of irresponsible tough-guy owners buying the current fashion-accessory tough-guy dog from a backyard breeder and generally not training it properly (by which I mean “my neighbors”), dogs with a majority of pit bull genes enough to have the phenotype are a serious problem?

You think this disagrees with my stance (that the problem here is irresponsible dog ownership, poor training, and poor breeding of popular tough-dog phenotypes) how?

I’d bet any amount of money there was no systematic breed-identification methodology in that paper (the full text of which appears to be behind a pay wall, but how on earth could a hospital survey of dog bites DO a systematic program?) and further that most of the “pit bulls” under discussion were unpapered or pit mixes, which I’ve already said upthread are undoubtedly significantly more dangerous than breed-standard American Staffordshire and American Pit Bull Terriers.

In addition, I see no mention of prevalence data for dog breeds–if pits and pit mixes are ~50% of the dogs large enough that their bite merits a hospital visit in the Philadelphia area, then their being responsible for 50% of hospital-treated bites is expected, not surprising. I would not be surprised to find out that’s the case, based on a non-scientific survey of dogs I see going to work–but without a per-breed population breakdown, a per-breed malfeasance breakdown is useless–it’d be like me blaming the black population of west Philly for being all criminals because they commit well over half the crimes. Except they’re also well over half the population.

378

I see.

Now, explain away the fact that two tiny next door towns in Texas, both so small that both the welcome signs are on the same pole, had back to back fatal pit bull attacks within a years time:

http://www.cbs19.tv/Global/story.asp?S=13479815

Two year old Kaden Muckleroy was killed by his grandfather’s pit bull.

and,

truecrimereport.com - truecrimereport Resources and Information.

Justin Clinton, age 10, was mauled by 2 of his neighbors pit bulls as he skateboarded by on the sidewalk. His mother was awarded $7 million in court from the pit bull owners.

When blaming fatal pit bull attacks on “large cities” is proven false, just come up with another anecdotal excuse. I have plenty of facts, with supporting links.

Rusk County Texas, has a total population of 53,000. It has had 2 fatal pit bull attacks in one year. Texas does not allow BSL.

Miami Dade county has 3 million residents, or 60 times as many people as Rusk County, TX.
Miami Dade county banned pit bulls in the 1980’s. In 30 years, they have not had a single fatal attack. Miami Dade residents voted overwhelmingly in a 2/3rds , or 66% majority, to keep their 30 year old ban on pit bulls last year.
Texas does not allow BSL, nor does California. Both states lead the nation in fatal attacks every year, and every year pits lead in those states by 2/3rds majority. In one year, 7 of 8 of all fatal attacks in TX were pits, or 87%.

In San Bernadino County, California, the city manager stated all fatal attacks were by pit bulls alone.

herrrres your link:

"This year alone, we’ve had two human deaths, and four deaths in five years, because of pit bull attacks. No other death has been attributable to any other breed,‘’ said Brian Cronin, chief of county animal care and control.

379

That’s anecdotal.

Last year, two canine rescue workers were killed by the dogs they rescued, when they in fact turned their backs on them . Both were pit bulls.

Another vet tech in Florida had her arm ripped off by a Clients pit bull that she was familiar with, that she turned her back on.

Do you really, really want me to provide the cites and links? It will only further degrade your anecdotes

380

As well, Best Friends Rescue, was awarded Vicks pit bulls, as well as tens of thousands from the Courts in Vicks trial.
They knew the world was watching. Pit lovers knew Vicks pit bulls were in the best pit rescue in the USA.
Yet they turned their back on one of Vicks pits. It got out, and mauled and DECAPITATED another dog, named Beans. They apologized profusely on their web page.
So you cou say that as far as them being the #1 pit bull rescue in the USA, they don’t know Beans.
Would you like the cite and link for that tragedy that occured when Pit bull central, turned their back on one of Vicks pit bulls?