I’ll put the same questions to you that I put to cougar: First, how can you possibly tell whether pit bull-types are more dangerous than other dogs when there are literally no statistics whatsoever (beyond estimates with a swing of multiple millions) about how many dogs of any given breed type there are extant as pets?"
The argument is moot because you refuse to accept stats that are shown to you over and over.there ARE stats. Is kind of like smoking…smokers will point out that there are millions of smokers and only a small fraction die from smoking. They also deny stats
You see Prejteach2 this is where you fail to know and/or appreciate what the numbers actually are. Males who smoke 5 or more cigarettes a day have about 1 in 4 chance of developing lung cancer. Smoking triples the risk of dieing from heart disease. All told smoking causes 440,000 premature deaths in America each year. Across the world 5 million deaths each year are due to smoking related illnesses. On average smokers die 14 years earlier than non-smokers. “More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined.”
There are millions of smokers and millions will die from smoking related illnesses. There are millions of dog owners and a few dozen will die from dog attacks. Overall the odds are 1 in 3 that a smoker will die from a smoking related illness. Overall the odds are 1 in 200,000 that a Pit Bull type dog will contribute to someone’s death. Can you comprehend how those two are not “kind of like” each other?
I ought reiterate, that is just a conservative estimate by me. That number could be as bad as 1 in 100,000 or so (every dog bite fatality is a pit bull, and only registered papered pit bulls inflict dog bite fatalities), or as good as 1 in 3.1million or so (half of dog bite fatalities are pit bulls, and the pit-type population is similar to that of city dog shelters–around 70% of dogs in some locales are pit bulls or pit-type mutts).
If there are 500,000 pit bulls in the United States (representing a fraction of the number of papered/registered pit types), then Pit Bulls are by far the deadliest domestic animal in the 30-60lb range ever bred, including things like purebred wolves.
If there are 55,000,000 pit bull-type dogs (number representing the statistic that in some places 70% of shelter dogs are pit bull types) in the United States, they are among the safest domestic animal in the 30-60lb range, including things like sheep–as in, other dog breeds have a higher bite fatality per dog rate if this is true.
If, as seems logical, the number of pit bulls is somewhere in the middle, then the risk is somewhere in the middle. Where exactly that risk IS depends on two factors–the number of dogs that commit attacks, AND the population of dogs that are of the same type that DO NOT commit attacks.
Without the denominator, there’s no earthly way to actually assess their risk. The raw number of bites, maulings, or fatalities is not enough data to assess the risks of pit bulls relative to other dogs.
This is true of smoking, too–if you told me 5,000 people died of smoking-related lung cancer, it MATTERS whether 500,000 people smoke or 500,000,000 people smoke (and in both cases, smoking would be orders of magnitude deadlier than pit bulls).
On March 6, Daxton Borchardt, 14-months old, was savagely killed by two pit bulls while under the care of his babysitter, in Wisconsin. Susan Iwiki, 30-years old, was babysitting Dax at her home on North Lakeshore Drive when her two pit bulls attacked.
The dogs that Susan owned with her boyfriend had no history of aggression. The couple raised the two pit bulls from puppyhood. The dogs were not abused or neglected and both were sterilized.
Jeff said that he used to believe that a dog’s behavior was determined by the way it was raised. He no longer believes this myth. Jeff hopes that by sharing Dax’s story with as many people as he can, new damaging pit bull mauling’s and deaths can be prevented.
Over the course of six weeks, Jeff and Susan shared many details through phone conversations and emails about what transpired on March 6th. They also shared their histories about the four months shadowing the young boy’s death. Both Jeff and Susan formerly believed, “It’s all how you raise them.”
Count the number of pit bull propaganda myths dispelled in both interviews:
1.) It all in how you raise them (pit bulls)
2.) They couldn’t be pit bulls
3.) No spayed or neutered pit bull has, or will ever, kill a person
4.) Pit bulls are dog aggressive; not human aggressive
5.) Pit bulls are very protective of their owners (baby sitter / owner was mauled as well)
6.) Only pit bulls trained to fight, attack
7.) “Look: my child safely sleeps with/ rides on our pit bull!”
8.) Only pit bulls that are chained, attack humans
9.) Pit Bulls will give a warning before they murder
10.) And the top David Letterman Late Nite myth: Pit bulls are the ultimate Nanny Dog
Worth noting: Jeff’s Facebook page began immediately getting posts on his timeline from not only friends who owned pit bulls, but from pit bull deniers from everywhere. “Ban the deed, not the breed”, and “Any dog can bite”.
When the media did a report on this, the Facebook harassing of the father of a deceased child on his own Facebook timeline grew. At one point on March 7th, Hannah Hoyt begins arguing with Jeff’s wife, telling her, “I am very sorry for your loss, BUT … it’s not the dog’s fault, it’s the owner.” Hoyt continues to taunt and antagonize Kim even after Kim states multiple times to stop and “leave us alone.”
Pit bull deniers also mauled the babysitter / owner of the pit bulls, calling her a “bad owner” via Facebook. Never mind that Susan adopted both pit bulls as puppies (see her photos of them fitting in the palm of her hand) but she also had both pit bulls spayed / neutered, and did not chain them (in fact the fatal attack occurred as she was letting them back in, after their daily run in a fenced area).
Be especially sure to read about Michelle Serocki’s involvement not only in this fatal mauling (where she was called out on a blatant lie) – but also note that Serocki was interviewed on Fox TV 6 news in Milwaukee on another pit bull mauling. In this case, Serocki, who runs Brew City Bully Club (a Milwaukee pit bull owner association) commented on TV about a aerial dive bombing pit bull that seriously mauled a man who was walking his dog on the sidewalk. This pit bull leaps off of a second story balcony to maul this man. Serocki advises Fox TV viewers “the man should have just taken “some deep breaths” and “not screamed” during this frenzied attack.”
Serocki identifies herself as being a breed expert and a “safety expert”, despite showing zero credentials, or than rescuing pit bulls.
**There is no safety protocol for an aerial-attacking pit bull. **
Fox TV 6’s portrayal of Serocki as a pit bull and safety expert is embarrassing and unbelievably deflected the reality of this obscene attack. In fact, the pit bull only stopped mauling the man when a passerby, rammed the pit bull with his car. to separate the land shark from the victim.
Note: Both Jeff (the parent) and Susan (the pit bulls owner) are now getting treatment from mental health professionals, due to this fatal attack.
Dedicated to the 11 children killed by pit bulls in 2013:
2013 Child fatalities by pit bull type dog (11):
Christian Gormanous - 4 yrs old
Isaiah Aguilar - 2 yrs old
Ryan Maxwell - 7 yrs old **
Dax Borchardt - 14 mos old **
Monica Laminack - 21 mos old **
Tyler Jett - 7 yrs old
Jordyn Arndt - 4 yrs old **
Beau Rutlidge - 2 yrs old **
Ayden Evans- 5 yrs old **
Nephi Selu – 6 yrs old **
Arianna Jolee Merrbach – 5 yrs old
And the 6 adults:
2013 Adult fatalities by pit bull type (6):
Betty Todd - 65 yrs old **
Elsie Grace - 91 yrs old **
Claudia Gallardo - 38 yrs old
Pamela Devitt - 63 yrs old
Carlton Freeman - 80 yrs old
Linda Oliver – 63 yrs old
This is also dedicated to the owners of the other 299 recognized breeds of dogs, whose combined total fatal maulings so far in 2013, are 3, which is the sum of 1 each of three different breeds:
(1) German Shepherd
(1) Rott / mastiff mix and
(1) Bullmastiff mix
So we now have 17 humans killed by pit bulls in 2013, and of the remaining 299 breeds of dogs, we have a combined total of 3, with no other breed having more than one fatal mauling.
Using your analogy…would you walk alone where you know you have a higher chance of being mugged by street gang members? Chances are they wouldn’t bother you, but why walk there? Why buy a dog that has a higher chance of attacking?
Do you really and truly understand that without reliable breed identification, and without knowing the number of pits and pit mixes in the country, there’s no way to say these dogs have a higher chance of attacking? That’s the entire point. The very first step is bullshit. So all the conclusions drawn from that bullshit first point are ALSO bullshit. It’s all bullshit!
Great! Then please prove the the majority of dogs that are chewing people to death -aren’t- pits.
You can scream ‘but they might not be pits!’ all you want; until you actually cite cases of dogs involved in fatal attacks being mis-identified as pits, I’m assuming pits are causing the majority of fatal attacks because a) they’re shit dogs, b) they tend to have shit owners that don’t train their dogs, or c) some combination of the two. Either way, I’m giving the probably shitty owner and probably shitty dog a wide berth.
Hey, I’m glad you guys love your dogs. You probably have nothing to worry about. Probably.
How much higher a chance? What benefits do you accrue from walking there?
I live in a higher than average crime neighborhood? Am I a fool, or am I making a pragmatic decision to accept a small risk increase in exchange for much better commute times and lower per-square-foot costs?
Since we can’t even establish how common pits are, we cannot possibly know what their relative chances of attack are.
Then don’t get a pit. And go ahead and cross the street if you see one. I don’t care, and I don’t know how the thread turned into this. You can cross the street when you see a black guy too; I’ll think you’re stupid but I won’t stop you.
We’re talking about legislation banning certain breeds that results in many loving family pets being killed. Do you support that? If you don’t, then I don’t have an argument with you. If you do, then you need to show that these dogs are a greater risk, and no one can do that. And yes, the burden is on the person making the claim and trying to pass a law.
Also, this:
[QUOTE=Renee RL]
Well you’re honest…you need an attack dog in a high crime area.
[/QUOTE]
doesn’t have anything to do with what was said and was a pretty stupid thing to post.
Darla Napora, avid BADRAP member (San Francisco pit bull org whose goal is to prove pit bulls get a bad rap, and that its the owner, not the breed) - she and her unborn baby were killed by her family pet pit bull that she and hubby Greg slept with.
Read yet another eye opening letter from her father:
I have tried not to say anything but, every time there is a pit bull attack Darla’s name comes up. People commenting about whom they think she was and what happened to explain away the simple fact that a pit bull killed her. HER PIT BULL KILLED HER.
People have said “She was white trash and that she must have abused her dog.” or “She fell off a ladder and the dog didn’t attack – it only was trying to awaken her.” and “Her husband trained the dog to attack Darla.” I also heard she left Yakima because they outlawed pit bulls. In reality, Darla had been living in the Bay Area several years before she decided she had the time and the room to have pets.
Prior to her marriage, Darla adopted a female pit bull and became a member of a local pit bull group that advocated against the bad rap that they always fell into. Darla exercised, trained and loved her dog while providing a good home.
After marriage, Darla’s husband wanted a male pit bull and one was rescued. This pit bull was larger than average and for some reason, they chose not to neuter. Darla’s husband came home for lunch and found Darla dead, her neck torn open and the male standing over her. Darla’s dog was in the corner of another room. Cowering and had urinated on the floor. This was the end of Darla’s life and she was pregnant with her first baby. Two lives ended BECAUSE of a pit bull.
I became Darla’s Dad when she was about four years old. She played basketball and soccer in school. It was a joy watching her grow up and become an adult. When she turned 18, she asked me to formally adopt her and I did.
Darla was raised around horses, cattle and pigs as well as dogs and cats. Darla always treated animals with dignity, respect and love. Everyone loved Darla. She was a genuine good person through and through.
Darla was so happy when she called to tell me she was going to have my grand baby. She sent me sonogram images and audio from the baby’s heartbeat. Yes, I still have all of the pictures and audio plus her texts, emails and her phone number in my phone.
Darla’s baby shower was 1 month away when she died. She was planning on flying up to Seattle for it. I had just sent her a crib. Darla was 32 years old; she took her time and planned everything. This was the most exciting time in her life. We, as a family were just as excited.
“I can only imagine the shock and horror that she felt. She honestly believed in the pit bull. I have always had dogs. I have 3 now. I have never trusted a pit bull. I know why.
“Darla is always in my heart. I think of her every day. I am deeply, deeply saddened by this tragedy. It seems almost worse because it was preventable. My mind goes down the “what if” path very often.
“I love Darla and I miss her.”
-Doug Robinson
Footnote: Greg Napora to this day doesn’t blame the pit bull. In fact, he buried it in the same casket as his wife Darla.
Whats very sad is that a pit apologist would claim Darla Napora (AND her unborn child) were murdered by a family pet “because she refused to neuter her dog”.
Why, then, did Daxton Borchardt ( see my post just a few posts up on this very page) get killed by his baby sitters 2 pit bulls? They were both spayed / neutered.
Why, of all the 300+ other breeds of canines, whose owners “refused to neuter” their dogs of choice, are we not seeing them kill dozens of humans every year? Or dismember a herd of 7 alpacas - as just happened at Yuba College?
Disclaimer: as in all pit bull mauling videos, viewer discretion is advised.
I will believe there is not a breed specific problem, when non Neutered / non Spayed Golden Retrievers take down and kill a full sized horse, Llama, or Alpaca.
… tedious anecdote. You know, I could go on and on like you have been doing with anecdotes about people being killed in plane crashes, but it still wouldn’t prove that planes are more dangerous than cars. One has to compare deaths per passenger mile to have anything meaningful to say. And you need to come up with deaths per pitbull vs. deaths per other dog breed before you have anything meaningful to say. You have yet to do that. Or even give a decent definition of ‘pitbull’.
But keep on spewing your tedious anecdotes that prove nothing. I’ll keep scrolling past your utterly useless ‘contributions’ to the discussion.
And you would likewise fail to comprehend the danger of flying in one breed of aircraft, the Czech LET 410. It is the most unsafe plane in the air, followed by 2 Russian planes, the Antonov AN-12, the Ilyushin Il-76.
You would fail to grasp that planes like these 3 breeds of planes, are not indicative of overall flight safety in all types of planes. You would be the first to hold a picket sign screaming “BAD RAP”, or “Its the pilot, not the plane” despite overwhelming evidence it is the plane.
“It’s just a conspiracy by the FAA. The FAA is Biased”
While you are loading your family in the Czech LET 410 Lawn Dart and your pit bull in the cargo, my family will be safely flying in an A380 - which has never crashed.
PS lets not forget about the pit bull in cargo on an American Airlines flight, New York to San Diego, that chewed thru its kennel, mangled the jets bulkhead, and then chewed 3 sets of cables. These 3 cables belonged to the #2 VHF radio, ACARS and ADF systems of the aircraft.
The captain stated that he lost some communication during flight.
No it isn’t. I have the gadzillion media reports saying pit bull-type dogs chewed kids to death. You’re the one saying the media reports are all wrong. To which I say, for the gadzillionth time - cite?