Pitbulls

Great Debates
922

Wow. Just Wow.

So the pit bulls killed him after he already died of natural causes, then tore his leg off?

**Then why did they also kill his dog? Did his dog also simultaneously die of natural causes, just prior to being mutilated to death? **

"The grandson said there were three “pit bull type” dogs near his grandfather’s body. The lower part of one of the man’s legs was missing and there were bite marks on his body. "

You also claim you the only reports you could find regarding the fence were a report that it had patches in the fence. Bullshit.

http://www.khou.com/news/local/Cy-Fair--221849341.html

" Evidence showed it clawed through a fence to get to the victim."

"“There’s a wooden fence that surrounds the complainants yard and there are holes in the fence where the slats have been broken,” said HCSO Sgt. Ben Beall.
““He was a very healthy man. We were not expecting this,” Velasquez said. “And you know, he was 96 years old. At this age, he was still walking. He was doing a lot of things around the house.”
If it’s determined the dogs killed him, their owner could face charges.”

One dog had blood on its fur:

An Australian Cattle Dog looks nothing like a pit bull, yet you highlighted in red bold text that an Aus Cat Dog was in the area. Never mind the nephew said he saw only 3 “pit bulls” standing over his newly deceased, newly amputated, grandfather.

The autopsy just be complete in a few weeks. Are you willing to bet that the man died of natural causes, the pits (and NOT the Aussie Dog) only tore his leg off after ward. And that his dog also died of natural causes just prior to meeting a similar demise? And that the one dog with blood on its fur was the Aussie Cattle Dog, despite the nephew clearly stating it was only the 3 “pit bulls” standing over Juan, just after he heard the barking outside and went to investigate? Are you will to bet that the dogs didn’t go thru the fence in their quest to kill the Juan Campos?

I will to bet all of the above happened.

I am also willing to bet, that Texas will once again, fail miserably to enforce “Lillians Law”, - a promise they made to Texas citizens, in lieu of BSL -after a woman was killed on her riding mower by a neighbors dog - that assures a lengthy prison sentence in such case.

Let’s watch and see how this unfolds.

Can some nice SDMB guru set up one of those polls - I haven’t mastered that yet. I want to see how many SDMB members will bet that:

Cougar Voter Option A:

1.) It was the pit bulls, and not the Australian Cattle Dog (blood found on one dogs fur will turn out to be from a pit , not the Aussie).
2.) There was in fact a hole in the fence, that the dogs went thru (Despite Stoids claim that in all the reports “But here is all I could find regarding the history and the fence…the fence shows previous patches”…See above where I linked to a cop saying “There’s a wooden fence that surrounds the complainants yard and there are holes in the fence where the slats have been broken,… " Evidence showed it clawed through a fence to get to the victim.” " said HCSO Sgt. Ben Beall……
3.) The pit bulls did bust thru a hole in the fence ( #2)
4.) Evidence in fact will support #3
5.) Juan Campos was alive while having his leg amputated
6.) Juan Campos was alive during the mauling, and died only AFTER the mauling
7.) Juan campos’ pet was also killed in his yard by the pit bulls
8.) Juan Campos pet did not die of natural causes just prior to being devoured
9.) The next door pit owner, who was not even home, will be found at fault
10.) Despite the very specific promise by Texas legislators of using Lillians Law
to imprison #9, he will do an OJ and walk.
11.) The 100th victim to die via pit bull mauling, since a cigarette smoking Obama took office, will occur in the next 19 days
(Obama claimed pits were no different than any other breed, and BSL was unfair to them - yet, despite have 24/7 armed secret service protection for Obamas family, he recently opted not to chose a pit when he recently adopted a second Portuguese Water Dog named Sunny)

Voter Option B -Stoids desperate grasp that:

1.) Juan Campos died of natural causes - the pits were just making decorative funeral arrangements after the fact (which, by the way, is a felony - to desecrate a deceased human body).
2.) Juan Campos died of natural causes prior to the dogs amputating his leg.
3.) The 3 pit bulls hovering over Juan Campos dead body, as found moments after his nephew heard the barking and ran out to find the bloodbath, were only guarding the dismembered carcass until police arrived.
4.) The Aussie Cattle dog, which looks absolutely nothing like a pit bull, will be found to be the dog that police referred to as having blood on its fur. It busted thru the fence, killed Juan, then busted back thru the fence, explaining why the nephew only saw 3 pit bulls. A parade will be held in Houston to honor the bravery of the 3 pit bulls for protecting Juans body until police arrived.
5.) this will be the 2nd recorded fatal attack since 1982 by an Australian Cattle Dog

6.) this will be the 372nd human killed by a pit bull in the USA

Remember, SDMB members, cast your votes before the autopsy returns. Like Stoid says, don’t let statistics sway you - go with your best choice based on just the facts as we know them on this single case.

923

Typo in 2nd to last line:

6.) This will NOT be the 372nd human killed by a pit bull

924

It does suck to have your misrepresentations outed, doesn’t it? There a very simple preventative for ever having to go through that in the future, though…

925

PS: the slightest bit of attention paid to the Obamas and their dogs quickly reveals that their breed choice was driven by his daughters allergies… They needed a hypoallergenic dog. So, yet another skipping of some facts on your part. Nasty habit.

926

Like your misrepresentation where you stated:

But here is all I could find regarding the history and the fence:

“He says they’ve had problems with their neighbor’s dogs in the past; the fence shows previous patches. But no one ever thought it would come to this.”

When in fact many, many reports say this:

**“There’s a wooden fence that surrounds the complainants yard and there are holes in the fence where the slats have been broken,”…“” Evidence showed it clawed through a fence to get to the victim.“” said HCSO Sgt. Ben Beall.
**

cite:

http://www.khou.com/news/local/Cy-Fair--221849341.html

Were you by chance a contestant in the Missrepresention America contest? You get my vote.

927

NO dog is hypoallergenic - ALL dogs have dander & shed

928

Even pit bull web sites confirm there is no such thing:

quoting:

“Yes, it’s true. There is no such thing as a hypoallergenic dog. I am not really sure who came up with this one, maybe dog breeders looking to sell more puppies by advertising their dogs as “allergy free”, or possibly it is the result of a whisper-down-the-alley effect of a doctor’s consultation with a patient.
Regardless of its origins, the story and existence of hypo-allergenic or allergy-free dogs is a complete myth.”

929

According to “Real Clear Science”

“Contrary to popular belief, so-called hypoallergenic dogs do not have lower household allergen levels than other dogs.”

cite:

http://www.realclearscience.com/2011/07/08/hypoallergenic_dogs_no_less_allergenic_than_other_dogs_241985.html
And the winner of the the 2013 MissRepresentation America contest will have to share the crown the President Obama.

930

Unlike you, I am perfectly aware that we’re on the internet and if I claim something about something written on the internet, my work can be checked, so I don’t strategically leave things out, it’s pointless. (Not to mention intellectually dishonest, and I’m not any form of dishonest, so there’s that…)

Unless you are making a case over the fact that I didn’t supply every sentence I found on the story that included the word “fence”, which of course would be stupid, the rest of what I provided on the subject matters, so let’s put it back, with different red highlights this time:

[QUOTE=stoid]
But here is all I could find regarding the history and the fence:

[/QUOTE]

Rather than… (well, I’m not really clear on what you think I was trying to say or prove…that there was no hole in the fence? Why would I? The fact that there was a hole on in the fence on the day of the incident is a given, how would the dogs have been in the Campos’ yard otherwise?) I was supplying the best evidence I could find that seemed to give any kind of support to, or refutation of your version of the story.

Which was this:

[QUOTE=cougar58]

1.yet another adult male was murdered in
2.his own fenced backyard in Katy, TX 3 weeks ago. 96 yr old Juan Campos
3.was mauled by his next door neighbors 3 pit bulls that 4. [COLOR=“red”]broke thru an opening in the fence,[/COLOR] and killed Juan’s pet,
5. then performed a live leg amputationon Juan, resulting in Juan being the 97th human killed by a pit bull since Obama took office
6. Note that Juan’s nephew stated that they had previous problems with these 3 “aggressive” pit bulls next door.
7. Juan decided not to “stand his ground”. Today Juan is 6 feet below his ground.
8. **Being that Texas is anti BSL (despite leading the nation in fatal pit maulings), and Animal Uncontrol has the “do not fire unless fired upon” mentality, **what would you, dear SDMB members, do if Juan was your father, 2 months ago?

He and his family knew the
8.3 pits next door were aggressive,
9. but because the pit lobby, Animal Uncontrol (“unless we see it, or if the dog is back on its property” & Police depts (“not our job”), state of TX with their anti-BSL all dogs bite mentality , and absolute failure to prosecute under their very specific state Lillians Law (land shark kills human = decade in jail)… no one had a solution.
[/QUOTE]

Your assertion as fact (YAAF): Campos was killed by the dogs.
Actually reported by legitimate news sources (ARLNS): Campos cause of death has not been determined. Given his advanced age and extreme temperatures, it is more than possible that he died of natural causes and the dogs mauled his dead body.

YAAF: The dogs ate his leg while he was alive.
ARLNS: No one has any idea whether he was alive or dead.

**YAAF:**The (3) (aggressive) dogs (belonging to a next door neighbor) broke through the fence specifically to carry out this murderous attack against Mr. Campos.
**ARLNS:**Two of the dogs probably belonged to a rear neighbor. The fence between the properties had been broken multiple times (Presumably for reasons other than performing live amputations on Campos) and the Campos family had tried to work with the neighbor on “controlling” the dogs. In context, that means keeping them inside their fence. Period.

YAAF: Juan Campos made an active decision in the face of being attacked by dogs.
ARLNS: Again, not known how he died, much less the scenario he faced and the decisions he made.

Then you go into your rant about the Texas laws, which, in context and combination with the issue of the fence and the dogs getting out, comes across as a flat **assertion **that the family had gone to the authorities about these dogs and been rebuffed. For which there is absolutely **NO evidence whatsoever. **

So I quoted the best support I could find for your assertions and implications regarding the issue of the dogs breaking through the fence in the past.

So care to explain what you feel was so grossly misrepresented? Or were you just looking for something to divert attention?

931

Evidently you have some trouble with the difference between misrepresentation and misinformation.

If there’s no such thing as a hypoallergenic dog, ok! News to me, thanks, I like to learn things. It’s really not an issue in my world.

The fact that I didn’t know that doesn’t affect the fact that many people believe it, Malia has allergies, and that was why the Obamas chose that breed.

There’s no purpose in misrepresenting the issue, so it’s pretty strange for you to go on so.

932

cougar58 and stoid, the next poster who makes a claim about another’s post that I consider an accusation of lying will get a Warning.

Knock it off.

[ /Moderating ]

933

I absolutley agree TomnDebb…there are much more important things to post here. Lets go check the news ticker.

Woah. What have we here. Breaking news out of Oregon, a 5 yr old boy killed by the baby sitters pit bull, the 100th human killed since Obama took office and the 372nd person in the USA:

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Baker-City-5-year-old-dies-after-pit-bull-attack-225650531.html

3 kids killed by a baby sitters pit bull in one week.

BAKER CITY, Ore. – An entire town is in mourning after a pit bull attack led to the death of a local 5-year-old-boy.
Those who knew the toddler, along with the entire town of Baker City, are both saddened and shocked by the sudden young death.
School Superintendent Walt Wegener told KTVB an incident involving a dog took the kindergartner’s life on Friday.
“He was dropped off for babysitting and ended up being taken to the hospital where he was pronounced dead in the middle of the morning,” said Wegener.
Due to Baker School District’s four-days a week schedule for students, the child was not at school, but with a babysitter instead.
Baker City police are now investigating and won’t release many details on the matter, but they did say that the death occurred at a home in the city and that a pit bull was involved.

When is enough, enough, SDMB members?

21 of the 23 fatals in 2013 by pit bulls, which are 5% of the canine population.
2 were committed in a collective total by the other 299 recognized breeds, and no breed has killed more than one. The others were a GS and a Husky, one each.

3 toddlers in 7 days, all by the baby sitters pit.

My debate is are we beyond wasting years and lives debating root cause and corrective action to keep the pit bulls in the general population, or do we ban pit bulls and grandfather in existing ones?

Lives are in the balance. Even I honestly had no idea the 3rd pit fatal would occur within the same week.

For god’s/allah’s/ flying spaghetti monster’s/ buddha’s sake, we have to stop the pit bull carnage and the pit bull lobby spin doctors.

934

“There’s no word yet on the owner of the dog.”

And you know these are 100% positive & accurate identifications because…?

935

It seems to me that the biggest unexamined question in this thread continues to be the idea that “300ish deaths in more than 100 years is an absolutely pressing problem–worthy of significant time, expense, civic attention, and confiscation of the private property of millions of households to address.”

Why? Wouldn’t you get more return on your investment AND harass fewer people in the process by, say, addressing the fact that ~195,000 deaths in hospitals can potentially be attributed to medical errors? (In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA)

It cannot possibly be solely about the death toll–if it was, you’d choose almost literally ANY other cause of death to harp on endlessly.

936

Drama.

937

About 150 Americans die a year by accidentally taking too much acetaminophen, the active ingredient in Tylenol, federal data from the CDC shows.. These are non-suicide deaths happening after a very small overdose of what has traditionally been considered a very safe drug.

938

Perfect.

I asked for a tally of what SDMB members would feel would be the breaking point, and you delivered.

So until pit bulls kill 194,999 humans in a year, we have bigger fish to fry. We need pit bulls just as much as we need surgeons, right? Never mind who’s to clean up all those amputations that are 99% unique to pit bulls. Where would all of those helicopter pilots take all of those victims of pit attacks, of which Medivac rides are 90% synonymous / exclusive to pit bull maulings?

Don’t be fooled by your doctors Hippocratic Oath, its really the hypocrisy ( the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one’s own behavior does not conform) of the pit bull lobby which rules !

You know, I honestly believe your logic echoes that of the pit bull lobby.

Thank you for your sincere reply

PS I actually had more than one pit bull denier, offer that because lightening strikes kill more than pit bulls in a year, we shouldn’t ban pit bulls.

My favorite, and the #1 reply from the pit bull spin doctors, is their claim that falling coconuts kill more humans than pit bulls each year. Never mind that that is 100% untrue, - yet widely believed and mis-used by the pit bull lobby, despite the fact that the person behind the myth, earned the less than desirable Harvard IG Noble Prize for doing so.

Peter Barss M.D., Sc.D., M.P.H., Head of Health, Intelligence and Territorial Epidemiologist for the Canadian Arctic, and adjunct professor of epidemiology at McGill University in Montreal. He won the 2001 Ig Nobel Prize for Medicine for his report on injuries caused by falling coconuts. The injuries included both those hit on the ground and those who fell out of the coconut trees. His report was actually published in the Journal of Trauma.

(for comparison - Reverends Jack and Rexella Van Impe also won an IG Nobel prize that year, for their discovery that black holes in outer space fulfill all the technical requirements to be the location of hell).

These were two highlights of the 11th annual Ig Nobel Prize Ceremony held at Harvard’s Sanders Theatre on Thursday, Oct. 4. As the name implies, the ceremony spoofs research that is much less than noble

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/10.11/16-igs.html

In fact, not one person has died from a falling coconut.

http://books.google.com/books?id=mZEhZMOFLiQC&pg=PT1225&lpg=PT1225&dq=IG+Nobel+prize+coconuts&source=bl&ots=LiagIRr-cr&sig=kK5YS4ALyye3ypHHxGm1Hc1PwPU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zAxIUvq7NYWmyQHS_4D4CQ&ved=0CGYQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=IG%20Nobel%20prize%20coconuts&f=false

Yet many, many pit bull web pages still cite this as reason for justifying the weekly carnage.

Think I am joking? Just type this in google (just as i have it - with quotation marks and the + sign:

“pit bulls” + “falling coconuts”

You will find that 8,400 web sites are currently claiming this proven myth to be fact to justify the rising pit bull carnage.

Then start counting the pit bull lobby web pages alone, that are spinning this well documented myth, including:

The Truth About Pitbulls via www.dontbullymybreed.org/‎

“Approximately 150 people are killed every year by falling coconuts”

www.nopetsleftbehind.com/Bully_Breeds.html

“Here is an interesting statistic for you; 150 people are killed every year by falling coconuts, but only 3 are killed by Pit Bulls”

(despite the fact that 3 were killed just this week )

“Approximately 150 people are killed every year by falling coconuts.”

www.pitbull-chat.com/.../93381-Your-coconut-will-kill-you-before-a-qu…‎

“Approximately 150 people are killed every year by falling coconuts”

Under-Stand-a-Bull http://www.bulladelphia.org/understandabull_mythvsfact.aspx

"a person is more likely to be killed…

  • by a family member
  • by a falling coconut"

centralflpitbullrescue.webs.com/aboutthebreed.htm‎

Approximately 150 people are killed every year by falling coconuts

From the Austin TX Animal Shelter, and shared via facebook by the Humane Rescue in Humbel, TX

“Think Pit Bulls are scary? You are 60 times more likely to be killed by falling coconuts.”

My debate is very simple:

How many people have to be killed by pit bulls in a year (or a week) before you feel action should be taken & they should be banned?

So far, Zeriel suggests 194,999.
Kayaker says 150

Cougar says 22 (counting the 5 yr old killed in Oregon by the baby sitters pit yesterday - the 3rd this week by a baby sitters pit - noting we are now at the previous all time record of 21 by pits, with fully one quarter of the year left)

Common SDMB members. What number of closed caskets trips your trigger?

939

Just to put to bed the 150 people killed by falling coconuts myth:

940

How do you know who owned the dog when the linked article says the owner is yet to be identified?

How do you know that the identification is positive and accurate?

941

U.S. fatal pit bull attacks have reached 220 since 1998; the last year the CDC studied fatal dog attack data.

In the last 8-year period of the CDC study (1991 to 1998), pit bulls averaged a remotely manageable** 2.8 deaths per yea**r. In 2013 pit are killing that many people in a month. In fact, in the past 6 days, 3 humans were killed by pits (less than a week). Every 2 days this week, a human died due to pit bulls. Yes, you read that right. This past week pit bulls killed more people in 6 days than they averaged per month in the last 8 year study by the CDC (1991 to 1998).

From 2005 to 2012, the most recent 8-year period, pit bulls averaged 18.8 per year, [COLOR=“red”]an increase of 670%.[/COLOR] In** 2013 its up 750%** from the CDC average of 2.8 per month.

So far in 2013, pit bulls have met their previous record of 21 ( as of yesterday via victim #372, 5 yr old Jordan Ryan of Oregon - the 3rd USA child killed by a baby sitters pit bull just this week), with just 3/4 of the year in the count. That is 2.3 per month. With 3 months left in 2013 pits will add another 7 fatals, or 28 for the year.

My debate is

What is the number of fatals per year that SDMB would vote yes to a federal ban?

What percentage (body count vs all other breeds) is unacceptable for pits, which are just 5% of the overall canine population?

Remember,in the first 4 months of 2013 (Jan 1 thru May 1) 100% of all 11 fatal canine on human DBRF (Dog Bite resulting in a Fatal) were due to pit bulls.

Betty Todd age 66 of SC (sons pit bull)
Christian Gormanous age 4 of TX (neighbors pit bull)
Elsie Grace age 91 of CA (sons pit bulls)
Isaiah Aguilar, age 2 of TX, (neighbors pit bull)
Ryan Maxwell age 7 of IL (family friends pit bull)
Daxton Borchardt age 2, of WI (baby sitters pit bulls - see letter above from Susan Iwicki)
Monica Laminack age 21 months, of GA (family pit bulls)
Tyler Jett age 7 of FL (neighbors pit bull, days after neighbor issued ticket for it being a terrorist)
Claudia Gallardo age 34 of CA (friends pit bull that she had interacted with previously)
Jordyn Arndt age 4 of IA, (baby sitters pit bull)
Beau Rutledge age 2 of GA, (family pit bull)

All of that carnage in just 4 months (or “drama” as pit bull deniers would say) by pit bulls alone.

So if pit went 4 months with a perfect score of 100% of 11 fatals, what would it take?
Is that not the very definition of specific, when 100% of a 4 months period of anything is caused by one group?

2014 going 6 months at 100% 20 fatals?
2014 going 12 months at 100% of 180 fatals?

That’s not a “dramatic” figure, considering we have had 3 humans killed in the past 6 days, 100% by pit bulls, which in fact is a rate of 180 per year.

Think it can’t happen? Guess again. City officials in San Bernadino have stated that every fatal DBRF and every serious maiming in the past 6 years has been by pit bulls. Not surprisingly, one of the three toddlers killed by the baby sitters pit bulls in the past 6 days, occurred in San Bernadino County this very week.