You just described the 2 pits owned by the babysitter that recent killed a child in her arms, and almost killed her.
Hold on while I get her letter.
Not knowing if she has any pitbull in her at all, I either have her in my home with my kids, or I take her to a shelter to her death. What should I do?
My name is Susan Iwicki. I was caring for my friend’s 14-month-old son, Daxton Borchardt, at my home in Walworth, WI when my own two pet pit bulls attacked me while Dax was in my arms. It was the most violent and bloody 15 minutes of my life. This was not just “a dog bite” incident. This was a vicious and prolonged attack on our flesh. This was a mauling by “normal house pets” that without warning reverted to what their breed was initially bred for: killing. No amount of force I exerted, including gouging at the female’s eye, was enough to stop or even create pause in their attack.
I never saw a single flash of aggression in those dogs since they were brought into my home as puppies three years prior. I truly believed, “It’s all how you raise them.” And they were raised with love, attention, and proper discipline. They were each spayed and neutered as early as the vet allowed and had regular veterinary visits. Both dogs were socialized, played with numerous children and small animals throughout their lives, and loved to cuddle. I was their “mama.” My dogs never experienced a day of neglect or abuse in their existence. The false sense of security is in believing it is the owner, not the breed.
On March 6th of this year, my so-called “babies” attacked their “mama” and ended the life of a real, human baby. A sweet, curious, happy little boy named Dax. In Laurie Hoffmann’s letter to the editor on August 23rd, she refers to the “negligence aspect” of pit bull victims’ stories. If the breed is so safe and truly are “nanny dogs,” how could any owner of a pit be negligent for having a child near their “nanny dog” that was raised well?
I urge you to look at that “friendly” pit bull you or your neighbor owns. Perhaps you believe the myth that I did, “It’s all how you raise them.” It certainly sounds attractive to believe, doesn’t it? It isn’t. It is an outright distortion of reality and one of the most dangerous myths to believe and perpetuate. From 2005 to 2012, pit bulls killed 151 Americans, about one citizen every 19 days. By 2016, pit bulls are projected to maul 275 Americans to death since 1998, the year the CDC stopped tracking fatal dog attacks by breed. – Susan Iwicki
What you should do is have lunch with Susan Iwicki (see her letter above)
Bullshit. I’m sure you can point to the news story that says so. Still bullshit.
More bullshit. And it doesn’t matter how many journalists say it, it doesn’t matter how many freaked out owners and friends say it. There’s missing information in the story. Normal, healthy, properly socialized dogs, no matter what the breed, do not, out of nowhere, become killers.
Again, I agree that pibbles have been overbred, badly bred, and there’s some real warp going on that can lead to serious problems. But again: people breeding for it, not some magical escaped Gene Of Evil that cannot be controlled.
Your earlier response regarding retrievers, etc. actually proves MY point: pits have been beloved dogs in this country for well over a hundred years. The litany of maulings and deaths has gone up only in the last few decades, and mostly in the last 10 years. The CDC’s information from 82-98 shows Rottweilers to be the deadliest of dogs, and also shows that as their numbers increased, so did the fatalities.
It’s obvious you are troubled by the situation. As the joyful guardian of a ridiculously sweet and smart 6 month old pitbull myself, I am too. We both want the same thing, but your answer is reactivity from ignorance, not a genuine solution at all.
Even better. I have a letter from Darla Napora’s father. Want it?
But you aren’t answering the question. Obviously I’m not going to have lunch with some random woman I don’t know.
This is real life. A real dog. It’s a question many people face. Here is a dog who has not shown in her behavior any tendency to be aggressive. But she might possibly have some pit bull, and by your definition, that would make her dangerous no matter how sweetly she has behaved. She could ‘snap’ at any moment and eat the children. So maybe I should have take her to the pound to protect my family, even if it means her death. But then again, she might not have even an ounce of pit bull in her, in which case I’d be condemning her to death, even though she is a lovely and loving dog, for the only crime of having a squarish head.
What do we do with the great multitude of dogs like her? Great family pets who may or may not have pit bull heritage? Kill them all?
Here is a picture of her right after I found her (6 months ago). She is now about 4 inches taller, and all of it has gone into her legs, which are long and thin like a greyhound. SSO|Shutterfly
Keep it. Even if your city passes BSL one day (via grandfather clause). You are aware, and have accepted that risk to you and your family. Just limit the risk to you and yours. I share a theory with a great evolutionist, but I wont go there today.
I wouldn’t demand that the Flying Wallenda family stop their high wire act. Never mind that 6 Wallenda’s were killed spanning 3 generations. The entire family either knew, or were in denial, of the risks. When a Flying Wallenda crashes thru my sunroof, my opinion may change. But that’s me.
Your neighbors don’t have a say in that decision. Nor does your mailman, or 911 responders. As I said, pit bull sign in yard/ door, 100K insurance (you did remember to watch CNN today, and notify your Allstate agent, right? You may be in good hands with them, but Brutus - not so). Be prepared for not just you, but an entire 3 block square area to no longer have the mail delivered - get a PO box to be safe. 8 foot reinforced fence. Updated will.
Know that if /when Brutus goes pit bull and comes home with the deceased mailmans leg, that the Pit Bull lobby ( as witnessed on SDMB) will disown you, and label you an irresponsible owner. (See Susan Iwicki’s letter above). Just like BADRAP disowned member Darla Napora, after hers killed her.
Most importantly, if you do obtain registration / DNA proof that its a pit bull, destroy it. That way the NCRC can say without doubt it was not a pit bull. Keep the photos - the NCRC amazingly can’t yay/nay a pit bull from a photo line-up. Tell Allstate you need that $100K settlement ASAP. And get this - when Animal Uncontrol comes knocking - all you have to do is not answer the door, or plan b - answer it, but deny Brutus lives there. If a Texan, don’t be fooled by the State “Lillians Law” - where TX promised it citizens it would imprison anyone whose land shark killed another human, after a woman named Lillian was killed riding her mower in her own yard by a neighbors land shark. It’s not enforced. And if your city does take it, just get another !!!
Seriously, keep your pet. Just know that this week, a grandmother and an uncle were arrested and are facing possible murder charges, for their pit bulls that killed their family member in Colton CA. I would list dozens of these, but that would risk a Gish Gallop ban.
You seem like a nice honest person. Should your locale enact BSL, please be honest, and do not relabel / rebrand / reinvent your dog as a “New Yorkie” or a “St Francis Terrier” …google both names, (else you will not believe me).
FYI I can’t see the picture you linked - it requires membership.
Shit, my entire city would probably not get mail if delivery was blocked within three blocks of anyone owning a pit bull. Seriously, I am somewhat surprised at how popular they have become and what a wide range of people own them. About half my dog-owning friends have pits or pit mixes.
Standard Operating Procedure for the USPS.
The first one I found, happened to be due to a pit named Brutus. He stopped mail delivery to 19 Seattle homes
Note the mailman wasn’t even attacked…just felt threatened
I ain’t lying, though. From what I see, you’d be hard pressed to find a three- block stretch of Chicago without a pit bull, whether you are in a poor or affluent neighborhood. My own three-block radius probably has about a dozen.
I do not believe that you sincerely ascribe accuracy, completeness and a general standard of intellectual rigor to reports from persons whose loved ones have been killed or maimed by anything at all, be it a dog or a Hummer.
You know, there’s nothing wrong with enjoying drama, nor with looking for people to share your passion. Your error was only that you put it in Great Debates. This forum is designed for people to present reasoned arguments backed by reliable data to make their points. Over the many pages and months that this thread has been going on, you made it very clear that you are impervious to facts, evidence, data, science… the only thing that moves you in any respect is drama. Drama is how you respond to everything. But drama proves nothing.
And before you trot out your statistics again, your statistics do not in any way support your “solution” to the problem. Your statistics are evidence that there is a problem, but they say nothing about the cause. “Look! Pit bulls are responsible for most fatal dog attacks! These statistics prove it! Therefore it is clear that pitbulls must be banned!”
But of course it’s not as though that kind of simplistic and generally useless brand of “problem solving” is unique to you… in fact, I think it’s entirely fair to say that it is probably the standard default for most Americans. “Bad thing! Scary! Kill! Destroy! Delete!” Which provides a moment of satisfaction before returning you to your completely unchanged reality, where we dont’ devote meaningful resources to actually preventing terrible things from happening, we just wait for them to happen, then wallow in the terrible drama and look for someone or something to punish.
Next time just go straight to MPSIMS or IMHO and post your terrible stories and invite people to wail with you there, because you’re not doing anything like “debating” here.
At any rate, I don’t worry, as I am far, far more likely to be attacked or killed by my fellow Chicagoan than a pit bull. If I were that concerned about managing risk, I would not be living in Chicago. At any rate, I think either is highly unlikely, and being killed by a pit bull is over an order of magnitude less likely than being murdered in Chicago.
Sure I am debating. I asked specifically what anyone would have done if 96 yr old Juan Campos was their father. He and his family knew the 3 pits next door were aggressive, but because the pit lobby, Animal Uncontrol (“unless we see it, or if the dog is back on its property” & Police depts (“not our job”), state of TX with their anti-BSL all dogs bite mentality , and absolute failure to prosecute under their very specific state Lillians Law (land shark kills human = decade in jail)… no one had a solution.
(Not a “final solution” - that is:-)
2 days and no constructive ideas. That speaks volumes.
I am not “impervious to facts, evidence, data, science”. Neither are the vast majority of Insurance Actuaries with Degrees in the science of actuary risk, who refuse to cover pit bulls. Tell the US Navy, US Army, USAF, and US Marine Corps, that they have it all wrong, and you know so much more than them. I believe they know a thing or two about risk.
PS 2 days was 2 days too long. 2 kids are having closed casket funerals this very singular week, -both were killed within 2 days of each other. The next victim would have had their leg ripped off and larynx dissected, resting 6 ft under, with Juan, had they awaited a response here.
C’ya
On the other hand, by far the largest insurer in the US, State Farm, will insure you and your pit as long as the dog has no bite history (same with my insurer, USAA). As long as you have State Farm in your area (or are ex-military or have family that is ex-military), it’s not that difficult finding an insurer that will cover pits.
State Farm can not continue to exist and insure pit bulls:
LOS ANGELES–State Farm Insurance, believed to be the largest U.S. home
insurer that does not enforce breed-specific restrictions on what dogs it will cover, in 2011 paid 9% more dog bite claims than in 2010, and paid out 21% more money to settle the claims, spokesperson Eddie Martinez told media on May 16, 2012.
State Farm in 2011 paid out $109 million to settle 3,800 dog bite claims nationwide, up from $90 million paid out in 2010 to settle about 3,500 dog bite claims, Martinez disclosed. The Insurance Information Institute estimated that all U.S. home insurers combined paid out nearly $479 million to settle dog bite claims in 2011, spokesperson Loretta Worters told Sue Manning of Associated Press–a 16% increase from $413 million in 2010.
“California, home to more dogs and people than any other state, led the way in 2011,” Manning wrote.
State Farm settled 527 dog attack claims from California in 2011. California victims received $20.3 million,
for an average payout of $38,520–an increase of 31% from 2010.
Wrote Manning, **“State Farm is still working to determine reasons for the spike, Martinez said.” **
In the 2012, dog bite claims accounted for $489.7 million, which is more than one-third of all homeowners liability claims paid in the year
State Farm shelled out almost one quarter (22%) of this half billion payout.
The 2011 State Farm update on dog bite payouts preceded by 10 days a $643,257 jury award to pit bull attack victim Vicki Bentley, 55, of Santa Rosa County, Florida.
The highest known jury award in a fatal dog attack case was $7 million against against Rick and Christi George of Leveritt’s Chapel in Rusk County, Texas, for allowing their two pit bulls to escape and kill skateboarder Justin Clinton, 10, on June 15, 2009
(Note that tiny Rusk County, TX had two fatal pit attacks within a year, while Miami Dade County had zero in 20 years of BSL)
State Farm Insurance on May 17, 2013 disclosed that California, Illinois, Texas, and Ohio rated first through fourth in insurance claims paid for dog attacks in 2011.
Fifteen states now ban breed-specific ordinances, including California, Illinois, Texas, and Ohio.
You are magnificently misguided to think that government agencies give a rats anus about the root causes or possible solutions, when they ban high risk planes, trains, automobiles, drugs, implants, or animals.
Seen any Thalidomide on the drug store shelves lately? At least with Thalidomide, victims might have had a partial working arm. Pit bull attacks remove arms and legs, assuming you survive at all.
How about baby cribs that killed children due to inherent design fault (even thou pit bulls killed many times more kids and adults). Not only were this one specific breed of baby cribs banned, it is illegal to resale them in the field.
Statistics, as you admit, “are evidence there is a problem”. Statistics in fact drive bans, they do not delay issuing a ban while someone like the pit bull lobby staffed National Canine Research Association spends decades deliberating root cause and corrective action.
Possible solutions or root causes are not a factor when legislation prohibiting a baby crib, drug, knee implant, or canine are banned.
My debate is whether data shows they should be banned.
Period.
You admit and agree it does. I no longer need input from you.
I have read about too many cases of pit bulls, where the owners did everything by the book (spay neuter, socialize, no chain, exercise - and even had them behave for years…until the day they snapped - see letter above from Susan Iwicki).
Actually, a lot of government bans are simply politicians reacting to fears of bad election results without any regard to facts. That was how Alar picked up a ban and how crack cocaine got (and kept) sentences that were ten times worse than sentences for powder cocaine despite Alar not being the danger that was claimed against it and crack being no more addictive than powder.
Appealing to the “wisdom” of the government is silly on its face.
Your wall of words regarding State Farm Insurance does not, I notice, contain any factual information regarding separate breeds, regardless what you want to believe.
Really? Then why do you continually post anecdote after anecdote without actually providing the data to support your crusade? (The plural of anecdote is not data, regardless what you want to believe.)
That’s all very nice, but that does not refute factually anything I said. The largest insurer in the US, State Farm, has always and continues to insure pit bulls. Maybe one day that will change, I don’t know.
Honestly, I am not against higher insurance premiums for owners of pit bulls, rotts, German shepherds, and other “higher risk” breeds. That presents its own set of problems (namely, the one of breed identification), but I’m perfectly fine with fairly distributing the actuarial risk among the higher risk population, much like how you have different car insurance rates depending on what risk class you’re in. Hell, you can probably come up with a reasonable formula that takes away the problem and arguments with breed identification and simply base it on the size and weight of the dog or something similar.
Can you clarify how this represents an example of “reasoned argument backed by reliable data”? Not only is this the same drama you always use, it’s especially “dramatic” in that you’ve gotten more than a little creative in sharing the story with us.
But here’s what the articles I could find about Campos death actually said:
[/INDENT]
Then you say:
[QUOTE=cougar]
He and his family knew the 3 pits next door were aggressive, but because the pit lobby, Animal Uncontrol (“unless we see it, or if the dog is back on its property” & Police depts (“not our job”), state of TX with their anti-BSL all dogs bite mentality , and absolute failure to prosecute under their very specific state Lillians Law (land shark kills human = decade in jail)… no one had a solution.
[/QUOTE]
But here is all I could find regarding the history and the fence:
Constructive ideas for what?
Tell us please, precisely, specifically, exactly what this is supposed to tell us about the legitimacy of banning pit bulls?
Gosh. That’s very dramatic.
Care to explain what you’re talking about? As in: which “high risk” planes have been “banned”? What trains? Care to fill us in on which “high risk automobiles” the government “banned” recently? If by chance you stumble across a plane, train, or automobile that is so dangerously defective that it has been “banned”, I’ll bet you real American money that the cause of the danger was identified.
As for drugs, you’re right that the “root cause” is irrelevant, but that’s because it’s a drug, not a living thing.
So next is the biggie…animals. Aside from pit bulls in certain localities, can you tell us what other “high risk” animals have been “banned”? Because I’m pretty sure you’re imagining things, seeing as how people are permitted to own venomous snakes, spiders and scorpions, lions, tigers and bears, all of which are FAR deadlier than any dog. The only reason there are more deaths from dogs than any of those other animals is because there are so many MORE dogs. When Rottweilers were relatively uncommon, there were no deaths attributed to them at all. As their numbers grew, the deaths did as well. If we had millions of cobras and tigers living as pets in this country, I guarantee you the death toll would make the death toll from all dogs combined seem as insignificant as the death toll from cocker spaniels does now.
Why thank you! This is an excellent example to work with! And it turns out you’re pretty much wrong about your assertion… between 2007 and 2010, cribs killed 153 children, while dogs in general killed 124 people, only some of whom were children, and pit bulls specifically only killed 54 total. So it looks like cribs kill at roughly 3 times the rate that pit bulls do.
And while we’re looking at the numbers, consider this: approximately 4 million children are born in the US each year, and they are in cribs for approximately 2 years. There are about 75-80 million dogs in this country at any given time. So 4-6 million cribs in use each of those four years killed an average of 38 children, while 75 million dogs averaged 31, and pit bulls averaged 13. SO I would say that cribs were a pretty urgent issue.
And yet…looky here:
So folks can still keep the crappy inanimate baby-killing furniture they already have! But with BSL, animals that have been beloved members of the family for years are no longer allowed.
No, I do not agree with your reactive, stubbornly ignorant drama-driven belief that pit bulls are somehow different than all other dogs, which is the only way that banning them would make any sense.
And you have never presented a single shred of evidence to support such a silly idea.
I’m not into wasting resources pursuing stupid, pointless, discredited policies to assuage the fears of people who can’t differentiate between correlation and causation, disease and symptom, or understand what statistics actually tell us.