Thanks SFP for a little history of Pitt. I grew up in upstate NY and went to High School with a pretty famous alumnus of Pitt. Think Outland Trophy winner, a HAWG on the Washington Redskins, and Lou Holtz foil on ESPN. for that reason I have always had a little soft spot for Pitt. I think they snubbed in 1980 when UGA won the Nat’l Championship.
Any Syracuse alums out there? Again, I went to HS not very far away, but I never even consider Syracuse as a college. I was heading South.
No argument with what you’ve said. This is discussion, not argument.
What you are saying is why I think that Syracuse would have been a great fit for the B1G and spread the appeal of the Big 10 network towards the eastern US. Think of Syracuse as someplace like Madison, WI or Lansing, MI or Lafayette, IN or Champagne, IL.
Only four B1G colleges are in, or adjacent to, a major metropolitan city, Minnesota, Northwestern, Ohio State and Michigan. The rest are in mid-minor cities that have large regional appeal. Syracuse fits that. Also, Syracuse has a fine basketball program which fits well with the B1G. Syracuse also has a fine football history. Big name players and coaches have come out of there. Pitt, not so much, recently but not historically.
So, here we are. The B1G may take Rutgers to spread the B10 Network to the east coast, instead of Syracuse. Rutger’s win over MSU in a non-conference game years ago put them on the map and they’ve been seeking the big time ever since.
It’s going to be interesting. I would like to be the guy that could hack all the phone calls going on between the AD’s. Things could get very interesting in the next few weeks.
It’s very depressing to me. I know my school is just standing in line to be executed.
Nice post, SPF.
UConn apparently is trying to move into the ACC. Does anyone else think they’re a better fit than Rutgers for the Big Ten? I don’t think either is a good fit, but obviously getting a school in or adjacent to the NY market is important to the conference. Football-wise, I think it’s a wash. New Jersey puts lots of players in D1 football, and especially the B1G, but I don’t think recruiting would be driving this move. So UConn = Rutgers in my opinion. Basketball-wise, it’s not even close. UConn would even maybe get a bit more NE exposure for the B1G, though I’m just hypothesizing there.
Chingon, ISU? Frankly, couldn’t they be better off in a new C-USA or MAC situation rather than trying to mess with Texas or other flagship schools in states that are drastically larger than Iowa? Not looking it up, but my guess is that the best they’ve ever done since I started watching sports ('86) would be 8-4 in football and one Elite 8 appearance in men’s b-ball.
KSU. A drop to the midmajor level would be devastating to the school, not only athletically but academically and financially.
IIRC, Rutgers fits the B1G academic profile better than UConn.
No problem. Always happy to talk some Pitt history, even when I’m not exactly thrilled with the reason. And tell Mark May I said hello!
Thanks, mkecane. I actually typed a lot more, but realized the post would probably be skipped by most people. 
R. P. McMurphy, I didn’t think you were arguing, and my post wasn’t meant to be an argument rebuttal. Sorry if it came off like this. We are just talking here.
Pitt not so much? Recently but not historically? Are you serious? I’m not going to get into a debate with you by listing players or coaches, but you need to reconsider this statement. Believe it or not, Pitt was a major force in college football in the earlier half of the 20th century; they have 9 National Championships, the last in 1976.
As I mentioned in my previous post, Syracuse does fit better than Pitt from a campus perspective. However, other than Penn State, they have no rivalry in the conference, and Penn St. isn’t really a rivalry either. Syracuse helped found the Big East in 1979 (32 years!), so any fond memories of PSU/Syracuse games are just that. I agree that it would help grab central NY’s tv market, but not NYC’s. I think that is up for debate, and the Big10, at least, decided that Syracuse wasn’t worth the invite. This leads me to conclude that 1) The Big 10’s research they did to determine added tv revenue (which I’m guessing they did, but I’m guessing) wasn’t significant, and 2) the Big10 couldn’t get its member schools excited about Syracuse due to the fact that other than PSU, no school has any kind of athletic history with them.
One historical note: It was rumored that when PSU applied to the Big East in 1985, the deciding no vote was cast by Syracuse. This has been denied by Syracuse, who I believe stated they voted FOR PSU’s inclusion, but who knows?
I continue to believe that Rutgers is not now and never will be considered by the Big10. If I’m proven wrong, that’s fine. My dream of Pitt going to the Big10 is dead, at least for the foreseeable future and probably my lifetime. But I will be shocked if Rutgers ever gets into the Big10. Rutgers does not equal NYC either. I know you believe they do, but no one is fighting over them. The ACC didn’t take them either time they expanded. The Big10 didn’t take them. I just don’t see it. Rutgers was on the college football map for 15 minutes a few years ago and has settled back into mediocrity, like most of the Big East football programs.
Here’s the thing. The way things were going in college athletics and the realignment of conferences, the destruction of the Big East was written on the wall. The conference is a mis-mash of schools created originally as a basketball conference, (Holy Cross was invited in 79 and declined). When they tried to create a football conference, they started inviting schools with D-1 football programs. It was never a homogeneous conference like the big10, where all member schools are on the same levels in the major sports.
I don’t know who is going to be left out in this free-for-all, but Notre Dame will be welcomed by any conference at any time. They are a perfect fit for the Big10, but ND likes its independent status and will maintain it for as long as possible. Which may be a very long time.
Notre Dame can get on anyone’s schedule it wants. It has an agreement with UM to play until 2031, for crying out loud. Navy is until 2016, and I seriously doubt that streak will be broken any time soon after that. They’ve been playing every year since 1927, and there are historical ties to this rivalry that ND wants to maintain.
For Notre Dame, they’ll probably stay independent until it comes time to renegotiate the NBC contract, which I believe is 2015. I find it hard to believe NBC will be able to match what a conference TV channel can. At the very least, NBC would have to have a LHN like channel for ND. And if NBC can’t or won’t provide that, ND will have to join a conference just to keep up. The fact that Indiana of all schools is making more money from TV has to hurt.
And Notre Dame is the best school to extend the Big Ten into NYC. I never see anyone with Syracuse or Rutgers apparel, but ND stuff is rather common. In fact, the Big Ten already has a pretty big fan base here with Michigan, OSU, and Penn State.
And this was what the B1G commissoner comment on when accepting Nebraska into the conference. He really stressed that the B1G was an academic association that also played sports. yes, he’s full of it, but it will be difficult to continue to pretend if they start allowing in schools without major graduate/research programs.
Each B1G school is a major land grant school with respected academic research facilities, with the noteable exception of Northwestern.
Rutgers and Pitt don’t seem to fit the profile as well. Notre Dame would probably be allowed in as a Northwestern type of exception. Missouri and Kansas probably do fit the profile. From what I understand. West Virginia was rule out because of this as well.
Another consideration that seemed to play into expansion, at least in the public annoincements, was the impact on sports that don’t generate profits. I’m curious to see how the TCU lacrosse team can afford to play matches against its distant foes.
With the current B1G division, the farthest travelling is between PSU and Wisconsin in the leaders and Nebraska and Michigan in the Legends. With Nebraska and PSU a good distance for apart for non revenue teams.
Special Ed, IMO, the Big East is dead, they have a call to Jack Kevorkian to put it out of its misery.
It is looking like UConn will be #15 and now Rutgers is #16. The “Quad Pod” system works well for this configuration. North Pod (BC, UConn, Cuse, Rutgers), The Mid-Atlantic Pod (Pitt, Maryland, Virginia, Va Tech), the North Carolina Pod (Duke , UNC, Wake, NC St) and the South Pod (Clemson, GT, FSU, Miami).
As Ga Tech Fan, it is a killer in football, but I like playing those team twice in B-Ball, and only facing Duke, Pitt, Carolina, UConn only once.
I’m the ISU fan here. And seriously, CUSA? MAC? Not that it might happen, but they wouldn’t be “better off.”
I’m not talking about what conference they might deserve to be in because of their record. But dropping from a BCS qualifier conference to something like the MAC will destroy their athletic budget, kill recruiting, and generally cause a great deal of discomfort. And all for things Iowa State had no control over or influence on. You say they’d be “better off” in a weaker conference. Why Iowa State instead of, say, Vanderbilt? Or Indiana? Or Washington State? Those football programs haven’t exactly brought greater glory to their conferences in recent years, but just because they were lucky enough to be in “the in crowd” of stable conferences, they get to stay.
Anyway, about the best I could possibly see is gathering together whatever is left of the Big 12 and the Big East to cobble up a conference that could still be somewhat BCS worthy. I don’t think 4 16-team conferences will be the end-all … that’s only 64 teams, and there’s a good 70 or 72 programs that could make a strong case for BCS level. But we’ll see.
Geographically, of course, ISU fits into the B1G really, really well (and academically, too, being an AAU member and all - unlike Nebraska!). But since it’s not a financial fit … it’s a long-shot fantasy.
I can’t wait until Texas A&M becomes the “Iowa State” of the SEC. We’ll see how the Aggies like them apples.
You are right, but that doesn’t matter. Luck plays a major part in how this plays out for many schools. Schools already sitting in a conference that is or will be turning into a “super-conference” are sitting pretty, even if they’ve had average athletic programs at best. I’m sure each conference has ways of booting a member school out, but it’s probably like firing a professor with tenure.
I don’t know the history of the Big10 or ISU, but I’ve wondered why ISU isn’t in the Big10. Unless the Big10 grows beyond 16 teams, they will never be a Big10 member now. I can see many universities scrambling to be in one of these super-conferences, and there are only 64 slots. This game of musical chairs will end and what’s left will be a mess.
I agree with this; ND has no reason to join a conference right now. In 2015, they may. I didn’t know Indiana was making more TV money than ND… that’s surprising. But ND doesn’t have to split any money they make with any BCS invitations, etc. Maybe ND feels that if they have the team they should have, their earning power far exceeds a conference school.
I never thought of ND for the NYC market, but this is a great point. If any college football team were to gain a following and have people tune in every Saturday in the NYC metro area, ND is the school to do it. I’d wager that ND would rate better than Rutgers in NJ.
I will admit I know very little about Rutgers academic footprint, so I will take your word that they don’t fit the Big10 profile. But Pitt is a world class university with world class facilities. And I’m not tooting Pitt’s horn because I’m a homer and an alum… Do a small bit of research on Pitt. Their endowment is over $2 billion. That’s bigger than every school in the Big East with the exception of ND. If you look at the Big10 schools, Pitt ranks 3rd behind Michigan and Northwestern in endowment. Here is a link to Pitt’s Wiki page. Read the second and third paragraphs closely to get an idea of what kind of university it is. I am amazed at the lack of knowledge about Pitt’s academic credentials across the country. If the Big10 were truly concerned with schools with strong academics and major graduate/research programs, they’d be asking Pitt to join. They’d be lucky to get them. Just one little research item that you might recognize. Jonas Salk created the Polio vaccine at Pitt.
Pitt is the oldest university west of the Allegheny Mountains in the country. 1787. They were Northwestern before Northwestern! (Actually, their name was originally Western University of PA…)
No, Pitt’s big crime seems to be that, as others have mentioned, they don’t increase the TV market footprint for the Big10 and they are largely viewed as an urban school (and they ARE compared to schools like PSU).
So I will probably go to my grave never seeing Pitt/PSU go at it in November each year on the gridiron. A century old tradition up in smoke since the 1980’s because of money. I should be excited by the prospects of ACC basketball opponents, but college football is the game I enjoy the most, and Pitt/PSU was at the same level as OSU/Michigan.
Man, I’m getting old. And get off my lawn!
It’s been 1945 (Army) since a team not already in (or about to join) one of those 64-team super conferences has won any form of the national championship in football (if you count ND - sorry, also add BYU who has one NC and has chosen to go independent). So, no, there really isn’t an argument for more than 64, especially since the list since 1945 (65 years - and 20 of those years had more than 1 “national champion”) only has 28 names on it:
Alabama (8)
Notre Dame (7)
Oklahoma (7)
USC (7)
Miami, Fla. (5)
Nebraska (5)
Ohio State (4)
Texas (4)
Florida (3)
LSU (3)
Auburn (2)
Florida State (2)
Michigan (2)
Michigan State (2)
Penn State (2)
Tennessee (2)
Army (1)
Brigham Young (1)
Clemson (1)
Colorado (1)
Georgia (1)
Georgia Tech (1)
Maryland (1)
Minnesota (1)
Pittsburgh (1)
Syracuse (1)
UCLA (1)
Washington (1)
First of all, let me just say that as a Pitt alumnus I could not possibly be more thrilled that our future is secured and that we’re guaranteed a seat at the adults’ table when realignment shakes out.
Now then, I believe that the above may be correct if we were designing 4 new superconferences from scratch, but the reality is that we are not. The amount of money and television exposure that comes from access to the BCS and playing in a major conference is huge. If schools begin getting left out, certainly their politicians will begin getting involved with anti-trust hearings. Do you remember Orrin Hatch making threats when Utah was on the outside looking in? Imagine what will happen if a school with powerful alumni like Baylor or a state’s flagship university like Iowa State gets cut out. The history of the BCS has been toward MORE inclusion–more spots available to non-AQ conferences, Utah and TCU to AQ conferences, etc.
I fully expect that in the end, we’ll have 5 major AQ conferences. The most reasonable ending is for the remaining Big East schools to split from the basketball schools and join the remainder of the Big XII. Remember a conference simply needs to maintain 8 members per year to retain it’s automatic qualifier. ISU, Kansas, KSU, Baylor, TCU, Cincinnati, Louisville, South Florida, WVU, SMU, Houston, and Memphis (completely guessing on the last 3) has enough geographical consistency and sports prowess to function as a conference and hold a BCS qualifier. Being the little brother major conference is better than being C-USA. The Big East becomes what it was designed to be–a northeastern basketball league.
The important words in all of this expansion talk are fit and footprint (and of course money, but nobody wants to actually come right out and say it). It is pretty obvious that the ACC leapt at Pitt/Syracuse in order to expand its reach up the Eastern Seaboard and grab one of the two major programs in PA and the only major program in NY. Pitt, as an AAU member with a large alumni base and huge endowment/academic prestige, would seem like a good Big 10 fit but does not expand the footprint at all. What does Pitt bring that Penn State doesn’t already cover? In fact, why should the Big 10 expand at all unless they’re grabbing Notre Dame? If Notre Dame comes with a school like Mizzou or Rutgers that is a state flagship university and AAU member, then expansion makes sense for them. The same could be said for the SEC. Mizzou is a natural 14th team for them. WVU fits if Mizzou goes to the Big 10, but adds a pretty small state to the footprint.
The goals of each conference are what really matters here. My guesses:
ACC: Somewhat hamstrung by having 4 programs in NC. They want to expand their footprint to have a foothold in every major tv market along the East Coast. UConn/Rutgers are the natural next two unless Notre Dame (truly does bring the NYC market) could be lured in.
Pac-12: Control the Western and Southwestern US. With the additions of OU/OSU and the likely addition of Texas and Texas Tech they’ll have the entire West Coast and western markets to themselves. Smart adds last year of Colorado and Utah.
SEC: Although they are rich and have many traditional powers, they do not control many large TV markets or have prestigious academic schools. A&M fixes both problems and Mizzou would as well. Do they need to grow beyond 14 if those two join? Probably not.
Big 10: Who knows. They’re they most conservative conference and won’t make any panic move and certainly won’t go to 16 without Notre Dame. I wouldn’t be surprised by any move or no move at all. Their payouts are huge, so any school has to bring plenty of revenue to justify dividing the pot further.
Big XII & Big East: Maintain AQ status.
Feel free to say TL;DR
I stand corrected. And while Pitt may be an urban school, aren’t Minnesota and Ohio State located in larger cities?
I’m converted. I will use all of my influence to try to convince the B1G to court Pitt.
oh, crap, too late
I don’t think this works for one simple reason. It leaves one of the conference champs with no one to play. Look, when the BCS comes up for renewal, they’re going to go 4+1 (4 AQ champs play then winners play to determine the nat. champ.). That doesn’t work with 5. It doesn’t work with 6 either, but then at least 5 would have someone to play. And let’s face it, these moves have next to nothing to do with basketball (or baseball, women’s field hockey, etc). This is about football.
I have several problems with what you’ve laid out (I still think the SEC raids the ACC for FSU and VT at some point), but this is inconsistent with what you’ve said above. You said 5 AQ conferences, keeping both the Big6 and Big East gives you 6. You can’t have it both ways, either they merge and somehow manage to stay an AQ conference or they don’t merge and then there’s no way either of them stays AQ. At that point it would make more sense to make the WAC or MWC an AQ.
SFP:
I didn’t think you were arguing and I didn’t take it that way.
Sorry for slighting Pitt’s legacy. My sort of long memory on this type of stuff failed me.
With that being said, I love this thread. We really don’t know how all of this is going to shake out but it is fun to discuss. There’s been a lot of intelligent and thoughtful input. As I said before, I’d love to be able to hack all the phone calls going on between the AD’s. This is fun stuff. Now that it looks like Texas and Oklahoma are headed for the Pac? the B12 and Big East have to be in panic mode.
I hear you, Uncle Jocko, but on the other hand, what makes ISU so special? What makes it more deserving, other than a history of being in the Big 8/12, than Colorado State, Louisville, or Cincinnati? The academics are nice, but we all know that’s got little to do with the realignment. It’s a school that’s ~3 hours from the Twin Cities, ~4 hours from Chicago, and in a small state to start with.
In all these years, ISU hasn’t done anything to make itself must-see. At least IU had basketball, and Washington State, ironically I suppose due to its isolation, had the good sense to be tied to the bigger school in the state, so they get to survive. Vandy is private, so they’re operating differently anyway. This isn’t an insult, it’s a question: why didn’t ISU try earlier to get in the B1G along with the Hawkeyes? Look at Mississppi State. I’d imagine it’s the “little brother” school in the state, but accepting that and “tagging along” with Ole Miss seems to have kept it in good shape, athletically speaking anyway. Oak can certainly add to this or correct me as needed. If MSU were a Big12 member and found itself without a life preserver as ISU seems to be, do you think there’d be many tears shed? Would the SEC say, “Ok, we’ll add a small school in a state where we already have representation just to be nice”? Of course not.
For what it’s worth, I’d rather go back to the way things were before the Bowl Alliance, where conferences were smaller and teams played their traditional rivals every year.
I meant the Big East and Big XII maintain AQ status in the context of the merger I guessed at above. One bid for one newly merged conference
I know everyone loves the symmetry of 4 superconferences because of how clean it would make a playoff, but every 4+1 model I have heard of leads to 8 BCS teams in 4 BCS bowls. Sample cite. It works with 5 conferences and leaves 3 at-large slots. College sports are never as clean and tidy as everyone wants. I just can’t imagine any current BCS school will get shut out. They may end up in a hodgepodge conference but they won’t be shut out. That is the only prediction I am confident in.
You may be right about the SEC, but I can’t see the SEC taking FSU. They are too close to Florida and get nothing out of expanding inside the footprint. VT, however, makes perfect sense in order to expand into a populous state. I still think Mizzou is the perfect SEC school based on the SEC’s desire to improve the acadmics and add major TV markets.
Rutgers is the 8th oldest college in the country, in fact Rutgers predates the country. It’s been a land grant school since 1864, and is a member of the Association of American Universities.
I’d say that Rutgers does fit the profile.