Pitting Jane Says and Terminator Gold 3000 - by Manhattan's Request

In this closed thread jane_says said the following about a product intended for use to cheat on a drug test:

This pissed off the moderator manhattan enough to close the thread. It pissed me off, too, so I am fulfilling manhattan’s request for a Pit thread upon this subject. (Gee, manhattan, hope you weren’t entirely kidding about that…)

I am pissed off because I took the time to concoct a long and thorough post, based upon by 4 years of working to try to help drug addicts, of the various sorts of drug tests and why you can or can’t cheat on them. In the interest of public service, I will now repeat a substantial portion of it (don’t worry, folks, the serious ranting will commence shortly afterward):

Now, prior to lighting the fire let me once again reiterate that I don’t give a flying fuck what you do to your own mind and body as long as NOBODY else gets hurt. I’m not some uptight, humorless, boring prude.

OK, here’s where the major ranting begins.

FIRST of all - drug abuse is NOT a victimless crime or sin or action. A drug addict always hurts those around him or her, it’s a symptom of the problem. All you jackasses out there trying to cheat drug tests (of any sort) are reprehensible slime puddles. And I’m not drawing a distinction between legal and illegal drugs. It’s wrong to drink and drive. It’s wrong to smoke ANYTHING around an asthmatic. It’s wrong to shoot up heroin unless you’re dying of cancer or something like that. It’s wrong to snort coke if the coke was paid for by theft, embezzlement, or other wrong-doing. It’s wrong to club the little old lady next door over the head in order to steal her magic brownies. Yes, some employers (only some?) are pustulent assholes, but if you aren’t an addict you can give the shit up for the short period of time it takes to find a job were you are NOT required to pee in a bottle. If you are in a profession where ALL the jobs require bottle-peeing… well, make a choice. Either give up the drugs (of whatever sort) or get a different career.

SECOND - it annoys the shit out of me that, after both Qagdop the Mercotan and I take time out of our busy days to attempt to educate people on this topic (and I like to think that both QtM and I are regarded as having some sound knowledge in this area some sleezeball, some scraping-from-under-the-toilet-rim-of-life, comes barrelling through the thread and posts the exact same bullshit we are trying to debunk.

Let me try (again) to clue you in, jane_says, although really this is more for the benefit of those who are actually listening, and still have sufficient synaptic connections in their brains to form coherent thought, reason, and draw a sound conclusion:

“Flush” systems to cheat drug tests almost never work. I’m not kidding you and I’m not in the employ of The Man. On the very very very very very very few occassions where “flushing” works it is due one or more of the following:

  1. First and foremost - the cheap-ass quality of the testing method
  2. The quantity of fluid involved. (Since the other ingredients don’t matter you might as well just use water)
  3. The ineptitude of the person giving the test.

Even if it DID work on an initial go-round, on MANY of the ROUTINE tests they’ll get a reading of “too dilute” which tips them off to your monkey business. So they’ll know you’re a scammer.

But no - you have to recommend some shit that contains god-knows-what. Buddy, unless “Terminator Gold 3000” comes in a gallon jug it ain’t gonna do jack shit for anyone, and if it did, it’s because of downing 2 gallons of fluid in a very short time.

I’m going to say it again - back when I worked in drug rehab we had people end up in the hospital because they fucked themselves up drinking “herbal tea” shit or just “flushed” too damn hard. But god forbid we have discussion on the risks of pulling this bullshit, I mean, if you’re so fucked-up ignorant you think it’s OK for people to lie and cheat, risking their health just doesn’t fucking matter, does it?

And let’s discuss the moral and safety implications of cheating on drugs tests (or trying to). I don’t know what job the fellow in the OP of the other thread was applying for. Maybe it’s a spot as a retail clerk or a stock boy at the local grocery store where the worst consequence of drug use might be mis-bagged purchases and theft from the cash drawer and the employer just likes lording it over the peons (AND keeping the cash IN the drawers). But maybe he’s applying to drive a semi-truck, or a hazardous chemical tanker, or drive the commuter train I ride in the morning, or work for an airline, or maybe he’s a surgeon… I don’t know. You don’t know either. There are some jobs that are not only incompatible with drug abuse, they’re incompatible with even drug use. In which case - fuck, no, I don’t want to help him cheat - if a trucker/engineer/pilot is using I want him/her fucking caught and out of there. Not because I’m some prude asshole but because it’s not fair, right, moral, legal, ethical, or in any way decent to put other people at risk of injury or death.

Hell, when I took up flying as a fucking hobby I pretty damn near gave up drinking - for your fucking safety as much as mine. And I did most certainly enjoy my beer, stout, vodka, and single-malt scotch in those days prior to taking the stick. I expect everyone engaged in such activity that might potentially put others at risk to adhere to the same high standards. Got that?

If Man N Cognito is a casual user who isn’t harming anyone who tripped over this in an interview for a job where this isn’t (to my mind) a huge issue… gee, bud, I’m sorry. Really I am. And I hope this didn’t fuck things up for you. If he’s applying for a job where this is a safety issue - dude, give up the pot. Just give it up or get a different career because it isn’t worth it to put yourself through hell because you have to piss in a bottle.

But YOU, jane_says you ignorant pice of slime, you spewer of bad information, you I have nothing but contempt for. You and your giggling, snarking tittering over “cheating” The Man Holy shit, Batman! Didn’t that expression go out with the 1960’s??? are nothing more or less than the gritty dirt scraped out from under a homeless drunk’s toenails.

You came to this place - which is SUPPOSED to be dedicated to fighting ignorance in between other random discussions, I suppose and DELIBRATELY spewed misinformation and poison to someone asking about a genuine concern. AND - you broke the rules. You broke the rules of the Straight Dope. Which lead to the closing of a thread that was ATTEMPTING the delicate tightrope of trying to inform without passing moral judgement, despite the illegality of some of the acts being discussed. AND you pissed off a moderator, manhattan, who is usually pretty reasonable about things.

I’d called you a low down bottom feeder, but I have nothing against catfish and worms. They, at least, serve a vital and necessary function in life.

::clap clap clap clap clap::

Ditto!!

Don’t hold back, Broomstick, tell us what you REALLY think!

Great post, actually. Well done.

Brava! I always love your Pit contributions, Broomstick - brilliant.

We were considering testing our athletes. I talked with a good friend of mine that used to own part of a drug testing company. She said there is virtually no way to beat a drug test.

We have a severe drug problem in our high school. I attended a drug awareness parent night to show my support for a sobriety group that was in the forming stages. They meet during lunch every day. This noon meeting is well-attended. In the initial stages they brought in some people from a rehab / recovery / AA / support group. These high school students had several months and even years sober. These students attended the parent night. I asked about drug testing and if they felt this was an effective way to disuade casual drug use and identify drug abusers that needed intervention. The two kids that responded both said the drug tests could be beat and that they had used and tested clean more than once. Some of them had either been on probation or parole. I don’t understand how there can be such different answers to this question.
I read your post as well as Quadgop’s. Both of you are convincing and credible. Yet, you have to wonder how these drug test beating products remain on the market if they don’t work. It seems the word would get out that they do not work. Sometimes I think these companies say they are testing just to eliminate some possible drug using applicants. Then they may just throw the sample in the dumpster or something. The drug user thinks they passed but in reality, the test was not administered.

We were told that we could test our athletes for $20.00 each. Would this be a reliable test?

A nice job by Qadgop and broomstick in that thread.

While I agree with most of your post…Please tell me how someone who grows a little green plant in his backyard and consumes that plant resposibly, is hurting anyone? And don’t tell me it doesn’t happen because I know it does.

I used to work in a head shop and the flushing agents were one of our biggest sellers. And we had quite a few repeat customers for them too, which makes me believe they worked at least some of the time.
And while I appreciate the concern over someone hurting themself by overflushing, I can’t stand behind the idea that someone trying to get a job flipping burgers or selling CD’s or even pushing paper around a desk should be drug tested. It’s from that standpoint that I conditionally support test-beaters (high risk positions are a whole other issue, and I think even alcohol should be a no no for those holding them). Considering that things like cocaine and heroin will be gone from the system within a couple days, it’s really pot smokers who are most at risk of failing a test simply because it stays in the system for so long. And I think that’s pretty ridiculous, considering the relative risks posed by a crackhead vs. a pothead. Not to mention the oft ignored distinction between a drug user and a drug abuser, which isn’t even remotely addressed by the tests. JMO of course.

Y’all were specifically discussing marijuana. Did it become an addictive drug sometime in the past 30 years? It didn’t used to be, back in the day when I occasionally smoked the stuff.

If, as you and Qadgop have said, THC residue hangs around the body for three weeks, exactly what is so reprehensible about cheating a drug test? If you are applying for a job, and find yourself confronted with a drug test, exactly what’s the problem with trying to hide the traces of having gotten wrecked the Friday before last? I’m speaking from a moral POV here, since “reprehensible slime puddles” is that sort of language.

If you simply believe that disobeying the law, whatever the law may be, is immoral, then I won’t attempt to argue with you; I’ll just point out that that’s a lot like Biblical literalism, only working from a much poorer source document.

Personal testimony is a valid form of evidence. Sometimes it’s more accurate than the medical authorities.

For instance, I trust my personal testimony, and that of the women I’ve been with in the past two decades, about the G-Spot. It doesn’t bother me in the least that the medical establishment has “debunked” it more than once during that time. I apparently know something that they don’t know - not that I’m unique or even rare in that respect. But I can either keep my mouth shut and say, “I must be imagining things,” or I can say what I’ve experienced, and note its apparent inconsistency with what the experts are saying. That is how you advance the discussion, and fight ignorance. You two are in a profession that has frequently been wrong over the years, and has been brought back to reality only by non-experts refusing to back down about the validity of their experiences.

As far as that goes, why don’t you aim your ire at the alternative-health lobby that has spent millions to get nice conservative pro-free-market legislators to block any sort of warnings on such products?

Excuse me, but while most jobs are probably incompatible with being under the influence while you’re working, very few are affected on Monday morning by the drinks you had, or the joint you smoked, on Friday night.

I am glad you gave up drinking in the hours immediately preceding your flights. But if your standards are such that, if you fly a plane, you shouldn’t drink anytime, then please don’t be a sanctimonious twit and expect everyone else to “adhere to the same high standards.”

And with respect to marijuana, the War on Drugs is every bit as stupid now as it was then. Maybe you shouldn’t be able to buy it at your corner drugstore, but those 735,000 arrests per year aren’t the answer either.

Now this is your valid argument. The board does have a policy against giving advice on how to break or circumvent U.S. law, and jane_says clearly broke that rule.

That really isn’t such a delicate tightrope, but you’ve sure fallen off it here.

It was a long time ago (and in a galaxy far far away) that I found myself voluntarily in detox. They took blood and urine on intake and asked me lots of questions to which I was completely truthful. I wanted off the shit after all. I was tested again a few days later and accused of cheating because substances that had not shown up in my first test showed up in my second. I had admitted to them in my interview but my public health file was forever marked not only with my drug addiction history but also with the statement that I lied even when confronted with the evidence. No matter how much I pointed out that I had used those substances prior to admission I was branded lying junkie scum. Ironically only after I had entered detox. Before that I was considered a model citizen.

Had I never gone for detox I would not to this day be treated as scum everytime I attend a hospital for whatever reason. It was 1987 and I have since had an extreme back injury. Think I can get adequate pain relief if my own doctor is not in town (as happened last month)? Not on your life. Think my gall bladder attacks were treated as anything other than a junkie seeking drugs? nope.

Detox was supposed to be the end of life of hell but that drug test called my character into question and nobody has let me provide the answer (the first test was fucked) since. I have not used any illegal hard drugs since the day of my voluntary admission yet due to an incorrect negative test my life has been haunted.

Hearing tales of cheap tests and employers using them for major decisions make my skin crawl.

Maybe it is. Just because you didn’t get hooked doesn’t mean it isn’t. From: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/marijuana0331.html

I guess my problem is, it wasn’t just me.

I’ve been around a whole bunch of people as they wrestled with giving up cigarettes, of the legal variety. I’ve known almost nobody who just stopped smoking tobacco one day, with no further struggle necessary.

OTOH, having been a teen in the late 60s/early 70s, I was around plenty of people who smoked dope from time to time, and around more than a few who smoked a great deal. Most of us just got tired of it one day, and stopped doing it anymore, with no further ado. The remainder were still smoking when we dropped out of each other’s lives. But I don’t know anyone who tried to give up pot, but the drug wouldn’t let them go in any manner like the way tobacco doesn’t want to let you go.

That’s my anecdotal evidence, and since THC is still THC, I kinda wonder what’s going on with a study like that.

Broomstick FWIW I wanted to let you know that I read that thread before it got the lock down, and learned alot from your, and QtM’s, posts.

If you are an addict, pot is addictive. ANY mood altering substance is adictive. It may not be physically adictive(meaning you dont go through withdrawels), but if you are an addict, thats only a small part of the equation. Just like most people can drink beer without it being a problem, most people can smoke pot without it being a problem. If someone smokes pot even though it is causing harm to them, like loosing their job, or family, then they have a problem. If they cant stop, even though they want to.

Wow, my first pit thread! Well, the first one about me, anyway - about a year and a half ago I pitted the slippers Mr. Jane got me for Christmas, but that doesn’t really count. I blush at the attention. No, really, I do! I’m blushing this instant. And I got a thread closed, without even trying. Red-letter day for me, huh? :eek:

Well, he asked about flushing, wondered if it worked, worked up a sweat over it. Detox and medical folks say no, but as a recreational user for years, I can firmly say that I have paycheck stubs to show that in fact it DOES. Has worked for me and many folks I know, repeatedly, over many years. I haven’t had the need to use it for a while now (for as Fireflypointed out, folks usually lose interest eventually), but I can tell you that I smoked the night before my pre-employment drug screen and took the test the next morning at 10:00 with no questionable result. I once rode to the testing site with a friend who smoked a joint on the way there after using the Product-Which-Shall-Remain-Nameless, and he checked out fine as well. I know of two engineers who work for my father who keep a bottle in their desk drawers at work in case they get popped with a random test. And no, my dad didn’t get to decide to start giving the tests, before some wiseacre points out my dad doesn’t think I should get high - the company he works for is headquartered in Sweden, and Lars Somebody said they had to give them. Anyway, no one I’ve ever recommended the stuff to has failed that I know of. And I bet I’d have heard about it if someone had lost their job on my advice.

'Mkay, mods, I won’t talk about how to skirt a piss test again. I will remind you that it’s a perfectly legal substance, however, and continue to disagree with those who claim it doesn’t work. BTW, the ingredients are listed on it, and if memory serves, it’s mostly gelatin, which may be why others have told me Sert-O has the same effect. I do apologize if I offended anyone’s sensibilities, and Marijuana in all its Evil Forms, as well as Ways to Pass a Piss Test, are officially on my no-no list. I humbly beg your forgiveness.

And Broomstick, no, I didn’t miss the “sleazeball, toliet-seat” comment, either. I just won’t dignify it with a nasty retort. However, you owe me an apology. It was uncalled for. You will not find one instance of my having EVER personally insulted anyone on this board, and you never will, because I won’t. I fully expect you to retract that nastiness.

RTFirefly:

belladonna:

That’s the kind of thinking that keeps the snake oil salesmen in business. Bought any magnetic insoles lately? Or stuck a candle in your ear? Or taken some herbal supplements? That stuff must work because people keep buying it.

Personally, I wonder why people even buy the flushing stuff in the first place. Last time I went to a head shop, I saw a couple of bottles that had the active ingredients listed on a big sticker on the front of the bottle. They were very common things you could buy at the grocery store for a fraction of the price.

As for the efficacy of such methods - well, I’ve known a couple people that have used them and passed and a couple who have used them and failed. The only time I’ve ever had to test, I abstained long enough to pass, so I wouldn’t know.

Every month or two, a potsmoking friend will tell me about the new big product that’ll clean you up for sure and go on to say how many people he’s known who have tested clean with it. Needless to say, I’m always skeptical.

I really do think that some companies test you just to see if you have the balls to take the test, then throw the urine away. That could account for claims like “everyone at my company uses Power Flush 7000 and nobody ever fails.” Well no, not if the urine is getting pitched into the dumpster.

One guy I used to know was going to take a drug test at a place where I also wanted to apply, so a couple of friends and I rode along with him. On the way there he said “I smoked a fat blunt last night. Y’think that’ll show up on the test?” A collective groan echoed throughout the car. This fellow wasn’t the brightest bulb in the growroom. You might even call him a complete idiot. Also, he was about 300lbs., so a fast metabolism wasn’t going to save him. He didn’t even have the luxury of drinking a gallon of water before the test or taking any other preventative measures.

He passed the test and got the job.

Man, I opened this thread expecting some rant about the band Jane’s Addiction and some planned Terminator sequel. What a combo that would have been!! Instead it’s actually about Jane’s addiction and ways to cheat drug tests varying from the inane to the intelligent. Oh well, we can’t have it all.

I dunno, but maybe the best way to pass a drug test is to not use drugs. I mean, I’m just speculating there, but that seems pretty foolproof. Or maybe you should realize you’re not frickin’ entitled to a job, and if you can’t accept it on their terms then you don’t get it. Period. Tough luck. You wanna dope up and still get a job without having to lie or defraud anybody (and that’s what you’re doing if you cheat a drug test, defrauding your future employers) then go get a job somewhere that they just don’t care. You know, roadie for Phish, intern at salon.com, distributor for High Times, Taco Bell cook, “guy sleeping on the couch”, drug dealer, the possibilities are endless! :wink: It’s a square world, baby, and the drug-of-choice for us normals is alcohol, so join the party.