It depends on whether I wanted to leave and where I could have left to.
Rebellion, for one.
Not at all. I don’t presume that my own moral system is valid for everyone. I respect people who follow their convictions, even if I don’t hold those same convictions.
~Max
Max is one of those people who incorrectly believes the fact that no one ever agrees with him as evidence that he’s right.
And while I’m here, FUCK YOU MAX YOU CHEAP-ASS IGNORANT PIECE OF RACIST SHIT.
Point taken.
Should it? In the post you quoted, I only incorporated my duty to respect the law. If everyone were like me in all respects, including contempt for slavery, we would have done away with slavery and other injustices through the system of law.
~Max
That duty isn’t as strong as the duty to obey the Fugitive Slave Act, which prescribes 6 months prison time and a $1,000 fine if I recall correctly.
~Max
So, you don’t know if you would have wanted to leave, so you think it would be moral to remain part of a society where you are obligated to turn in fugitive slaves?
The slave that you are turning over to the slave catcher wanted to leave and no longer be a part of that society.
I recognize the right of “xxxxxxx”, except for when I don’t; matches with everything else he says.
I think the British Monarch, in this hypothetical, should hang the leaders of the rebellion, issue a general amnesty, and redress the underlying issues.
~Max
If I am living in Vermont in 1858 and own a barn, then ipso facto: a society where I have an obligation to turn in (or at least not shelter) fugitive slaves is not one I find so profoundly immoral that it is unacceptable to remain a part of it.
~Max
This is horrifying. I wonder what you would find “profoundly immoral” if turning people over to be slaves doesn’t make the cut.
It’s not a reflection of my personal opinion about slavery being profoundly immoral today, it follows from applying the hypothetical to my system of morals.
It’s like if I asked you, if you were a slave owner would you release all of your slaves at the first opportunity? And the answer must necessarily be no, no matter how much you actually loathe slavery today.
~Max
starting?
What the hell? Are you serious? You would either not help or turn them in?
What is wrong with you?
Are you prepared to risk throwing your life away to help a stranger you find in your garage - even if you are pretty sure he’s innocent? Sheltering a fugitive from justice is still a crime.
You’re looking at years in prison if you help him, plus a hefty fine. Is it worth it to you? Do you have young children? Do you have a duty to be there, and not in prison, for your kids? Do you have a duty to be there for your community, your business, your spouse, etc? Which is more important?
In 1858, if caught and convicted, the $1,000 fine would mean you definitely lose the farm, your family will be reduced to drifters, and you will definitely go to jail, etc.
Now look, I won’t turn him in unless circumstances mandate that I have to. I’ll tell him to get out of my sight and leave it at that.
~Max
If you’re capable of living with yourself after abandoning your human duty to help someone in such need, then your innate moral compass is defective or nonexistent.
Yet many people did help slaves escape. Were they crazy? Or just courageous?
Sure, it’s easy for us who are not risking anything to say “sure I would help the slave escape to freedom.” I get that it was a harder decision for those in the situation. But I’d like to think we’d give it a bit more thought than “it’s wrong to break the law.”
While I agree with nearly all the critiques of Max in this thread, perhaps we need to better define what we mean by “if you were a Vermonter in 1858,” or whatever.
What is this “YOU,” exactly? You as you are today, magically transported back in time? Or not at all — i.e., the same as saying “think of a Vermonter in 1858”? Or some blend?
It seems Max is treating this as a blend, and the rest of us are thinking of it as the first option. I have to agree with Max, that first option is pretty unhelpful for any debate (he didn’t say these words, but it’s how I see this discussion developing). There was NO ONE like a 2022 person then, with all that has happened and evolved (culturally) since.
It’s why John Brown (that very year) was so very, very, very exceptional. Even without all the Kansas and Harper’s Ferry events, his (failed) farm in New Elba, NY was utterly unique in how the black partners were treated entirely as equals. Emerson, Thoreau, and the like were nowhere close to this.
Which is to say…I find Max profoundly wrong, but I don’t think “what would you have done if you were (X person in X situation before around 1967)”-type questions are helpful in this thread.
You have a point - writing about it is one thing, but actually turning away a person you have the power to help in real life is another thing altogether. Maybe my morals don’t hold up in reality. As far as seeing actual shit, I’ve only seen really sick people who are sure to die of chronic conditions, and I was powerless to help them even if I wanted to. I know you’ve been in the military so you may have seen people at the edge of death and actually saved them at great personal risk. Which is honorable and worthy of respect.
~Max
Don’t sell yourself short, I think you could summon up the courage to turn in a fugitive slave.
The latter, not the former.
~Max
If the crime they are guilty of shouldn’t even be a crime in the first place, yes.
Let’s apply this to modern day. Let’s say you are in a red state, Roe v Wade has been abolished, and this is a 12-year-old girl who had been raped by her abusive father, and found out that she was pregnant. The batshit legislature of your state has declared that if she gets an abortion, she’s a murderer. They don’t care about the circumstances, she’s a murderer. Would I help take her to a clinic to get an illegal operation?
Hell yes, I would. That poor girl is a victim, not only of her dad, but the state. I would feel obligated to help her. I don’t give a shit what the tyrannical state declares, neither of us are guilty of a damn thing.
I’d rather be guilty of violating an unjust law than guilty of supporting monsters who criminalize underage victims. I might get in trouble with the law for helping her. But I will definitely never be able to sleep at night again if I don’t help her.