Placating Deaniacs

I called Howard Dean a potential ‘little Lenin’ in this Pit thread, arousing anger of some resident Dean supporters, it seems. My comment was based on my perception of Mr. Dean as an angry, divisive and extremely inflammatory political figure, supported by cohorts of deluded, narrow minded and angry people.

In particular, there were his famous comments about Republicans as rich and racist.

Anyway, I was called on it, so I decided to open this debate.

To educate myself, I dug out this article:

Return of the Angry Man

Indeed, it seems there is more to Mr. Dean then I supposed and a virtual plethora of diverging views exists to explain his actions.

However, I am not ready to remove my ‘little Lenin’ comparison just yet. Personally, I think Lenin was one of the greatest scumbags in history: power obsessed maniac, lying about everybody and everything, wreaking havoc and destruction everywhere he went with the only goal of obtaining power. He was always on the sidelines, always divisive, inflammatory, trying to pit social groups against each other; he never accomplished anything positive and grabbed undeserved credit for actions of other decent people. Contemporaries attest that listening to Lenin was like watching a tornado; the main message of his speeches was destruction of everything. Yet Lenin enjoyed faithful following of narrow-minded, angry and credulous people, willing to do his bidding. That’s my take on Lenin and I think Mr. Dean bears a small resemblance.

But there is also a different view. Many people insist that Lenin was a true believer, devoted to his cause and carried away with the sense of his gigantic mission. That can also apply to Mr. Dean, in small measure of course.

So, whether it’s the former or the latter, my comparison remains appropriate. Unless the real explanation of Mr. Dean actions lies elsewhere.

:dubious: So, what’s the debate here? “Howard Dean: Asshole or Fiend?” Or is it about the “Deaniacs” rather than Dean himself? If the former, perhaps you might look over the website for Dean’s organization, Democracy for America – http://www.democracyforamerica.com/ – and pick out exactly what about their message/politics/attitude you find objectionable, and please be specific.

If we’re discussing Dean himself – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Dean – I predict it will take no more than five posts for some deluded (or disingenuous) Doper to mischaracterize him as a “leftist.”

You have been reduced to *ad hominem * attacks already? What’s the matter, haven’t got a leg to stand on with the issues?

Man, those dollops of elephant dung are everywhere.

So does this mean it’s OK for us liberals to compare George W. Bush to Hitler?

Okay NI, just as long as I get to refer to Limbaugh a pretty close analog to Hutu Power radio, which you apaprently once listened to with glee. Or Santorum as Torqemada, or… you get the idea.

Moreso than any number of Republicans I could name? If these sorts of comparisons are sensible, why single out just Dean?

No, that’s still outlawed by the Godwin amendment. But you can compare him to Stalin. Fair?

In my experience, supporters of Dean are more grounded in reality, more broad-minded and less angry than supporters of any other major personality in politics. As for comparisons to Lenin, I’m not all that well-versed on Lenin. I do know that he killed millions of people, started a full-scale war, betrayed and murdered many followers and called for violence almost every time he spoke. Dean has not done any of those things in any degree, so characterizing him as “little Lenin” doesn’t seem too accurate to me.

When I first viewed this thread, I saw there were no replies. “God” I thought to myself, “Maybe it will stay that way.”

No such luck.

Now there are good replies, but no thanks to the OP. Still, personally I would have liked it if there were still no replies. Ah well, if wishes were horses . . .

We’d never be lonely on Saturday night! :slight_smile:

Actually, I was never a Dean supporter.

[quote[My comment was based on my perception of Mr. Dean as an angry, divisive and extremely inflammatory political figure, supported by cohorts of deluded, narrow minded and angry people.[/quote]

I wonder why that made people angry? :confused:

I think the most likely explanation is that you don’t understand his actions or positions. Very, very, very likely. Nothing in that article even remotely backs up your off-the-wall Lenin comparisons, which you are standing behind and trying to explain instead of doing what you should do: apologize and stop doing it.

That sounds like a man who advocates “destruction of everything” to you?

NI, can you give specific examples of when Howard Dean personally lied “about everybody and everything,” wreaked havoc and/or destruction, or grabbed undeserved credit for actions of other people?

And since you can’t prove he never did nothing, if I can show that Dean has accomplished something positive or gave a speech in which he did not advocate the destruction of everything, would you admit your comparison is wrong?

Manure.

I call it like I see it.

Mr. Dean would agree.

[Jayne]

…we’d all be eatin’ steak.

[/Jayne]
Anyway, guess I must consider the OP’s premise, ridiculous as it may be.
Amongst the many specious charges made by the OP against Mr. Dean, we have this:

To accept that Mr. Dean is a “little Lenin”, we must therefore agree that at some point Dean has argued for the “destruction of everything” . To the best of my knowledge Mr. Dean has never made such an argument. I’m not sure whether he has ever argued for the destruction of anything, actually. The OP’s premise is therefore invalidated and we can all go home and have a nice beverage. Thanks for playing.

You are forgetting that I outlined two assessment of Lenin’s personality: some people call him a thug, some people call him a decent man.

What is not in dispute that Lenin is responsible for eventual horrific mass murders in USSR.

So even you consider Lenin a decent man, you must agree that it is possible for a decent man’s intentions to go terribly wrong.

When Mr. Dean is condemning Tom DeLay to jail without a court sentence, he may be deliberately violating the presumption of innocence; when he call all Republicans rich and racist, he may be deliberately engaging in inflammatory talk, calculated to pitch digfferent social groups against each other. Or is he just losing his head sometimes?

Both may be dangerous trends.

Are you kidding me? What Dean has done is extremely tame in this regard: there’s nothing in anything he’s said that even rises above the general back and forth between the two parties. If “rich and racist” are the worst things ever said about a party you can consider yourself to have gotten off easy. As for pitting groups against each other, you yourself have repeatedly admitted that you used to listen to and enjoy Rush Limbaugh, for whom spreading hatred for liberals is a life’s project. And yet you somehow find Dean to be particularly remarkable in terms of his partisan sniping?

Why is everyone so defensive?

I thought I was supposed to be the one on defense.

I made a statement, I was criticized for it, I was called evasive, so I thought I should allow my critics to convince me of my errors. I even offered a fairly balanced and sympathetic article on Mr. Dean.

You don’t wanna play? Fine by me!

Yes I do. And I am not alone.

Your actions are very confusing. You cite a search of threads about Dean to prove that he is remarkable? What is that supposed to be showing me?

As a Democrat (and one that just got finished polishing off Jerry Kilgore and has some more Republican incumbents to relieve of office next year) I don’t much like Dean. I’ve evne said so on some of those threads. But that doesn’t mean I think he’s particularly exceptional. We discuss a LOT of political figures here at the Dope. So?

Nothing. Fine.

A Google vomit of a reference there NI, the SDMB variant. Even on a cursory look, many of those points of the critics of Dean are shot down even before the 5th post.

Point to one that you consider bad so we can see what are you talking about, and lets see if you do take into consideration the explanations on those “examples” that prove your “little Lenin” accusation. It is so far a very silly one…