Plan would make Bush leader of entire government (not just executive) in an emergency

[XT]

Oh, I missed this:

@Czarcasm

Just curious as to why you are so quick to label claims critical of this administration “hysterical bullshit”?

Well, it could be that every one of those claims was a huge distortion of the facts. I note, with some irony, that neither you nor anyone else has YET to produce a cite for what was asserted there. Why is that, pray tell? If this stuff is just falling out of the news (as asserted), then I’d think you guys would be falling over yourself to provide links.

For the record, real claims critical of the administration I don’t call ‘husterical bullshit’. You can try to paint me as a Bush supporter because I take exception to bullshit like that which was asserted…but to my mind the fanatics here are the ones handwaving the distortions aside (and then attacking ME for pointing it out :smack: ) simply because its an attack on Bush. As if there isn’t enough REAL stuff…or even real stuff buried in the distortions…to attack Bush on.

@Czarcasm

I have heard this same thing over and over again for the last five or six years. “He won’t be able to do this, Congress won’t allow it.” “He won’t be able to do that, the courts won’t allow it.” Every time something new and slimy is revealed, the supposedly left-wing mainstream media covers it until a new scandal or crisis arrives like magic to knock it off the front page. There is no limit to what this administration can get away with if they proceed at a deliberate pace. People will get used to anything if they are prepared for it. Our country is no different than any other country in history when it comes to corruption.

And yet, the courts have fought back on things like the wire tapping and even the prisoners he’s holding in Cuba. In the last election cycle, fed up people voted in more Dem’s than Pub’s to Congress and the Senate. Bush’s popularity is rock bottom.

There ARE limits to what this or any Administration can get away with…and Bush has hit them. He’s already HAD his high water mark on getting away with stuff.

@Czarcasm

I used to think that a reasonable person who was a true believer in a cause could eventually be persuaded to change her/his mind if enough evidence came in. I was wrong, and I freely admit it. If Bush had a different scandal every day of the week for the next twenty weeks, the true believers would dismiss every damning bit of evidence with their common mantra-"It’s just another Bush-bashing thread ". There could countless scandals, but to them there is no last straw that breaks the camel’s back.

Well, I don’t know you as a poster myself…you don’t SEEM very reasonable to me, but maybe, as you say, you’ve changed.

You seem to be implying that, because I pointed out that the posters distortions of reality were ‘hysterical bullshit’, that this makes me a die hard Bush supporter. :rolleyes: (thats a wonderful debating tactic btw…really top shelf)

FTR, you don’t have to convince ME that Bush is a slime ball, that his admistration is riddled with corruption, that he’s brought us into a stupid war that is likely to drag on for years, that our economy is doing well IN SPITE of the stupid economic policies he has enacted, etc etc. You just have to realize that I’m not going to sing kumbaya with you for ANY silly assertion made about Bush, regardless of how distorted it is. IMHO, there is plenty of REAL stuff to hammer the fool on.

-XT

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

Here are a number of references easily found regarding the culture of religious intolerance at the Air Force Academy, provided for the benefit of those incapable of searching on their own, keeping up with the news in an independent fashion, or incurious enough to just continue spouting nonsense instead of educating themselves.

BBC NEWS | Americas | 'Religious bullying' at US academy

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-05-03-academy-usat_x.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/03/airforce.religion/

Air Force Academy Staff Found Promoting Religion (Published 2005)

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/25/pzn.01.html

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=10883

[Renob]

@Hentor the Barbarian

Here are a number of references easily found regarding the culture of religious intolerance at the Air Force Academy, provided for the benefit of those incapable of searching on their own, keeping up with the news in an independent fashion, or incurious enough to just continue spouting nonsense instead of educating themselves.

I agree that there is probably a culture of intolerance there. So what? How is Bush responsible, other than the fact that he’s Commander in Chief and thus ultimately responsible for everything that happens in the military? There are some bad apples at the Academy, sure, but did orders come down from the President to make fun of Jews? How can anyone reasonably blame this on Bush?

[Mr.Moto]

The thing about the Air Force Academy religious intolerance was that it was a pretty longstanding problem. I saw a quote from a 1977 graduate of the academy in the Washington Post who said the same atmosphere prevailed then as well.

Does that reflect poorly on every single administration from Ford to Bush II? Only to a very small degree, IMHO. This issue simmered on the back burner for a long time, and didn’t blow up in a big way until lawsuits were filed on Bush’s watch. I think lots of people are happy with the overall outcome, with the exception that a few of the specific officers involved now have some black marks where they might not warrant them. But all in all, the situation has improved.

Maybe situations of religious intolerance reflect somewhat on the administration in power, but this can really only go so far. I remember when I was stationed in Italy in the Navy in the mid-1990s, one of the petty officers in my command had to be talked to by his chief because he wouldn’t leave me be. He knew I was in the process of converting to Catholicism, and he thought it was his job to save my soul another way.

Only an idiot would think that act of religious intolerance (and it was indeed that) had anything to do with Bill Clinton. So why do the antics of a bunch of chaplains at a service academy directly reflect on Bush? Especially if this behavior predated his administration?

[XT]

@Hentor the Barbarian

Here are a number of references easily found regarding the culture of religious intolerance at the Air Force Academy, provided for the benefit of those incapable of searching on their own, keeping up with the news in an independent fashion, or incurious enough to just continue spouting nonsense instead of educating themselves.

I’ve skimmed them (and as I said, I was already aware of this problem). Be so good as to quote me the relevent parts from ANY of those wrt the assertion made. You know, instead of a bunch of drive by links answering some OTHER question that I didn’t dispute?

You guys are really something else, you know that?

-XT

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Renob

I agree that there is probably a culture of intolerance there. So what? How is Bush responsible, other than the fact that he’s Commander in Chief and thus ultimately responsible for everything that happens in the military? There are some bad apples at the Academy, sure, but did orders come down from the President to make fun of Jews? How can anyone reasonably blame this on Bush?

I was specifically responding to the incredulity that this was even happening, expressed as follows:

@xtisme

(This of couse would be fucking illegal…I think ‘hysterical bullshit’ is mild on this one)

I believe that the matter was originally brought up in regards to whether or not America has become a theocracy. That is a debatable point, but I do believe that Bush has intentionally fostered a belief among the religious right that he would specifically act to further Christian ideology. I would argue that his role vis a vis the Air Force Academy was only indirect, but I don’t think anyone but Shodan was talking about Bush having a direct role in the matter.

I also happen to think that Bush has played the religious right for suckers.

Anyway, my bringing up the cites was simply to establish that it was not hysterical bullshit for xtisme, who seems blessed with the naivete of a young child.

[elucidator]

Well, there is the somewhat icky fact that Mr Bush has expressed sympathy with an evangelical agenda on more than one occaision. If he had sternly come forward and insisted that, whatever his own views might be, the Air Force Academy was a secular institution open to persons of all faiths, or none. Rather like Truman’s brave insistence that the armed forces should be blind to race.

Were such a thing to occur, of course, I would have to leave off posting until I obtained enough Purian Primate Chow to feed all the monkeys flying out of my butt.

[XT]

@Hentor the Barbarian

I was specifically responding to the incredulity that this was even happening, expressed as follows:

I’m sorry…are you seriously claiming that if the President of the US instructed the Air Force to…let me quote “Jews in the Air Force Academy were told by instructors that they’d never get anywhere in the AF unless they accepted Jesus.”…that this would NOT be illegal?

This has been an ongoing problem with the Air Force far predating Bush. There have been steps taken…IIRC, I read an article talking about this if fucking 2005. So it hasn’t exactly been ignored. The assertion, along with the others, clearly attempts to point the problem squarely at THIS administration. Thats a distortion…and I think ‘hysterical bullshit’ is pretty mild.

Since we’ve dealt with the Air Force one ( :rolleyes: ), care to take a shot at some of the other assertions? How about the "Congress, in the 9/11 excitement, passed a 300-page PATRIOT Act that nobody was given time to read. In a similar rush, the Iraq resolution gave the president the right to do whatever was necessary, and he took that to mean he was not subject to existing laws regulating warrantless wiretaps and torture. "

I’m really curious about this one. Congress wasn’t give time to read the Patriot Act? They passed it without ANYONE reading it even? Same with the Iraqi war? None of them were give any time…just put up against the wall and told to sign?

And the funny thing is…you guys are DEFENDING this hysterical bullshit. Instead of simply acknowledging that its BS exaggeration, you are waving your hands about and trying to make it work. I’ll have to link to this post the next time one of you starts a rant about how conservatives like to hand wave some of the more hysterical BS from their fringe posters…

-XT

[elucidator]

@Hentor the Barbarian

… xtisme, who seems blessed with the naivete of a young child.

No fair. Friend XT is merely employing a bit of rhetorical judo, a legitimate if somewhat annoying mechanism: if caught out on an untenable limb, retreat under a barrage of demands for absolute proof, then, if necessary, nitpick the offered proofs until your opponent collapses from sheer exasperation.

Simply a matter of tactics, which may reflect character, but not intelligence.

[XT]

@elucidator

Well, there is the somewhat icky fact that Mr Bush has expressed sympathy with an evangelical agenda on more than one occaision. If he had sternly come forward and insisted that, whatever his own views might be, the Air Force Academy was a secular institution open to persons of all faiths, or none. Rather like Truman’s brave insistence that the armed forces should be blind to race.

Er…right. So, do you have a cite that Bush did or does back up this attitude at the Air Force Academy that proscribes other religions? Or are you merely connecting unrelated dots? Bush=Evangelical equates to Bush=Approves actions at AF Academy? If you have such a cite, by all means drag it out 'luci.

Smells like, um, team spirit to me.

-XT

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@xtisme

I’m sorry…are you seriously claiming that if the President of the US instructed the Air Force to…let me quote “Jews in the Air Force Academy were told by instructors that they’d never get anywhere in the AF unless they accepted Jesus.”…that this would NOT be illegal?

Since you are in a quoting mood, could you perhaps quote where it was asserted that Bush instructed the Air Force to do this?

@elucidator

Simply a matter of tactics, which may reflect character, but not intelligence.

Now now, please note that I said “naivete,” and nothing about intelligence.

[XT]

@Hentor the Barbarian

Since you are in a quoting mood, could you perhaps quote where it was asserted that Bush instructed the Air Force to do this?

Are you, perhaps, familiar with the word ‘context’? Or was the poster merely going off on a tangent to talk about the Air Force Academy? :rolleyes:

‘rhetorical judo’ indeed…

@Hentor the Barbarian

Now now, please note that I said “naivete,” and nothing about intelligence.

@elucidator

Simply a matter of tactics, which may reflect character, but not intelligence.

I love the way you skirt the rules of the forum. I’ll have to remember this trick…

-XT

[Shodan]

@Hentor the Barbarian

I would argue that his role vis a vis the Air Force Academy was only indirect, but I don’t think anyone but Shodan was talking about Bush having a direct role in the matter.

So, when you blamed it on Bush, you were indeed spouting hysterical bullshit.

And I searched all the cites you provided. Unfortunately, not one of them established what you claim happened, that “Jews were told they would never get ahead unless they accepted Jesus”. In other words, you were spouting even more hysterical bullshit.

Would you care to try again, or are we going to change the subject, ignore the rebuttal, or revert to the usual “Bush lied about Iraq” nonsense that is your fall back position whenever your hysterical bullshit receives the derision it deserves?

Regards,
Shodan

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@xtisme

Are you, perhaps, familiar with the word ‘context’? Or was the poster merely going off on a tangent to talk about the Air Force Academy? :rolleyes:

So there was no assertion that Bush was directly responsible? Why did you pretend that there was? If you are able to understand context, you would understand that the poster was suggesting Bush is responsible for establishing a context akin to a theocracy - a debateable assertion, but quite different than saying that Bush ordered the Air Force to do so. That is simply you putting words in another person’s mouth.

@xtisme

I love the way you skirt the rules of the forum. I’ll have to remember this trick…

-XT

Boo hoo hoo. It seems to me that suggesting others are engaged in “hysterical bullshit” illustrates that you are quite adept at skirting the rules of the forum yourself.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Shodan

So, when you blamed it on Bush, you were indeed spouting hysterical bullshit.

Quote me anywhere in this thread that supports this claim.

The misstatements and misrepresentations of the righties are flying fast and furious.

[elucidator]

@xtisme

…I love the way you skirt the rules of the forum. I’ll have to remember this trick…

@Xtisme

…('luci, of course, has the excuse of being a blind ideologue who is immune from actually having to learn about a subject he is expounding on )…

I’m sorry, you were saying?

[XT]

@Hentor the Barbarian

So there was no assertion that Bush was directly responsible? Why did you pretend that there was?

I didn’t pretend it does. The first paragraph the poster wrote obviously links to the third. If you don’t want to see that…well, thats your lookout. I’ll just move on.

In none of your links does it say that “Jews in the Air Force Academy were told by instructors that they’d never get anywhere in the AF unless they accepted Jesus”. This doesn’t mean that Jews (and other non-Christian denominations) haven’t been harrassed at the AF Academy…they have been. Since, oh, the mid-70’s at least (we are sure taking a long ass time to become a theocracy). Steps have been taken on this problem several times. Leaving aside the obvious link between this and the President, its STILL hysterical BS to point to this as a sign that the US is becoming a theocracy…and you still haven’t produced a cite backing up the assertion that Jews (or Muslims or anyone else) have been told that they have no future in the AF unless they accept Jesus.

BTW, I note you haven’t tried to tackle the other claims. Feel free.

@Hentor the Barbarian

That is simply you putting words in another person’s mouth.

Well…no. THis is me simply being able to maintain focus in my reading from one paragraph to the next. Regardless, lets move on…you need to dig up a cite that actually shows the claim that AF officials have told Jews they have no future in the AF unless they accept Jesus. This will undoubtedly come as a shock to those Jewish and Muslim officers actually IN the Air Force…

Feel free to tackle the Patriot Act assertion too while you are at it friend Hentor…

-XT

[XT]

@elucidator

I’m sorry, you were saying?

Sorry…its a bit hard to speak with my foot in my mouth. Maybe I should have said ‘Hello Mr. Pott. Its Mr. Kettle…remember me?’.

Sorry.

-XT

[elucidator]

Por nada. If it never happens again, it never happened at all.

[tomndebb]

With only a little bit of further personal feuding, you guys are going to get this thread shut down.

You are not even pretending to stick to the topic of the OP any more.

[ /Moderating ]