Plastic surgery to look white--always self-hating?

[Freudian_Slit]

I read this article about plastic surgery, inspired by MJ.

In 1908, on hearing about a young man in Vienna who wanted a nose job, Sigmund Freud made a quick diagnosis: The man clearly suffered from an “anti-Semitic persecution” and did not want to be Jewish. When he was informed that “the patient is an ardent Jew” and a committed Zionist, Freud was flummoxed. In the end, he concluded that the patient was conflicted about his father and did not want to look like him.

So what would Freud have made of Michael Jackson?

It’s always tempting to look for pathologies in those who drastically alter their appearance through surgery. And Jackson certainly had surgeries. One set of photographs that has been circulating since his death documents his startling transformation over time. His nose seems to grow ever thinner, his skin ever lighter.

My first thought is that surgery to intentionally look more white does indicate some self-hatred. But to a degree doesn’t all plastic surgery indicate some self hatred or self dislike? Is it any worse to be displeased because it’s racial (i.e., a nose more associated with blacks, or a “Jewish” nose, or Asian eyelids)? Automatically, I can’t help thinking yes, but I’m not sure why.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@Freudian_Slit

My first thought is that surgery to intentionally look more white does indicate some self-hatred.

I’m thinking of all the people who attend tanning salons. Week after week after week. I think it indicates self -love.

[Freudian_Slit]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

I’m thinking of all the people who attend tanning salons. Week after week after week. I think it indicates self -love.

Well, I suppose you could argue that’s self-hatred, too (not that I necessarily am) because it’s trying to look other than what you are. I put “Plastic surgery to look white” in my thread line not because I think it’s good to look dark and bad to look white, but because most people who try to alter the way their ethnicity looks aren’t doing it to look Asian or black, but to look white.

[holmes]

@Freudian_Slit

Well, I suppose you could argue that’s self-hatred, too (not that I necessarily am) because it’s trying to look other than what you are. I put “Plastic surgery to look white” in my thread line not because I think it’s good to look dark and bad to look white, but because most people who try to alter the way their ethnicity looks aren’t doing it to look Asian or black, but to look white.

Is there a really a difference between the dark skinned, dark haired “ethnic” white person, who straightens her hair, bleaches it, pays for a cute little up turned nose and wears blue contact lenses, and the non white who uses a more extreme level of plastic surgery to ‘try’ to achieve the same goal?

Isn’t the moviation is the same; " to look like what the dominant culture considers attractive, because I am not that?"

I really think we need to treat African-Americans as an ethnic group, the same way that we treat Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans and the other hypens and apply the same standard to them. I think it just makes these discussions a lot easier and avoids placing such a burden on them and trying to explain their behaviour as ‘other’.

[Bryan_Ekers]

What if you’re about to go into witness protection - in Alaska?

[Mighty_Girl]

How about Paris Hilton, she of the bleached hair and constant blue contacts? How about George Hamilton? What do they loath?

I agree that all plastic surgery entails a bit of self-loathing, but it’s does not necessarily have a racial element.

[Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Even if it is self-hating, so what? You’re randomly dealt a face, with features that could result in any shape or form - you think you are going to be comfortable with it all?

Also, just because someone is black doesn’t mean they don’t hate blacks.
With that said, I think there are certain boundaries for certain people. Getting that awkward lump out of your nose may be worth weeks of pain, thousands of dollars and social scrutiny to some, and possibly even further negativity to others. Subjection, oh subjection, you are a nasty mistress…

[Mr.Duality]

IMO MJ wanted to look like Elizabeth Taylor, who was his close friend.

[Zsofia]

Well, you could certainly have drastic surgery done not because you hate yourself but because you’re a very practical person - surely there are, say, Asian people who have had eyelid surgery to get ahead on the career ladder, not because they themselves give a crap about their eyelids?

[Freudian_Slit]

@Zsofia

Well, you could certainly have drastic surgery done not because you hate yourself but because you’re a very practical person - surely there are, say, Asian people who have had eyelid surgery to get ahead on the career ladder, not because they themselves give a crap about their eyelids?

I wonder about that–does it work? I mean, I’ve seen before and after pics, and it’s not like all of a sudden the person doesn’t look Asian. In fact, usually they look about the same to me.

This also reminds me of some woman who got surgery to be taller because she felt it was holding her back. It apparently took months to recover and sounded horribly painful. I guess I can’t help thinking it sounds like a personal dissatisfaction and not like a practicality thing since she was 5’2 to start with.

I know that plastic surgery does pretty much always indicate some dissatisfaction with your body (excepting cases like the one you mention, Zsofia), but I don’t know why it just intuitively feels wrong to reject part of yourself on racial grounds. I know we’re always holding ourselves up to some standard but…I don’t know. Something like hair removal or liposuction doesn’t bother me. Or even a nose job…but something that’s obviously racial, like the eyelid surgery, just feels wrong. And going on feelings is always a bad idea. I guess I’m just trying to examine myself and ask why it seems more wrong when it has to do with race.