Please explain Rolen trade! (And add your own recent-trade questions)

In My Humble Opinion
1

Rolen dealt to St. Louis in deal for Polanco, Smith

I follow baseball pretty well, but since I am a Philly fan it’s a little tougher to look at this objectively. So I’m counting on you guys to show me how this was a good deal for Philadelphia.

Here’s what I know:

  1. Rolen was going to be a free agent and had said he would not re-sign with the team.

  2. The trading deadline is 4 pm Wednesday, so they either needed to trade him now or have to ask waivers THEN trade him later - or just let him walk as a free agent after the season.

This limited their options, I know. Even so, Phils GM Ed Wade said that they had serious discussions with six teams. Doesn’t sound like options were all that limited.

So, who did they get?

Placido Polanco - no Rolen he, although he’s got a decent bat.

Bud Smith - tossed a no-hitter once upon a time, is more suspect than prospect now, has been in the minors most of the year (and will still be there as a member of the Phillies’ organization)

Mike Timlin - aging setup man

So. Did they get enough for him?

Now, as I said, I’m a Philies fan. And I happen to think this is one of the worst deals they’ve ever made.

People thought the Curt Schilling deal was bad at first, but in that deal at least prospects were received (and one’s doing great - Vicente Padilla). With this deal, we got three players we already know about. There are no prospects here. No unknowns.

In short, I think they got shafted. Best-case scenario has Smith coming back and pitching strong - but even then, I’m not sure his potential comes close to Rolen. Again, I know they had to do something, but…

And of course, this doesn’t mean they’re done dealing - any of the three guys they got (okay, maybe not Polanco, since they need a 3B) could be dealt again.

Thoughts?

2

A St. Louis guy here. We’re doing handsprings over the Rolen deal.

Still, there have been a few people questioning what the Cardinals gave up.

Polanco – very versatile and a clutch hitter. Yes, Rolen is about 10 times better, but Polanco is very serviceable.

Bud Smith – has had control problems this year, but still a prospect. My guess is that Smith’s performance will ultimately judge which team got the better end of the deal.

Timlin – you call him an aging set up man, but he’s one of the three best relievers the Cardinals had in their bullpen. He’ll be a very steady performer for awhile longer.

Plus, the Cardinals (and the fans) are actuely aware that Rolen is a rent-a-player, and if there’s a strike, they wouldn’t even get a post-season payoff. Plus, he was unhappy in Philly, and there’s no guarantee he’ll be happier in St. louis. Yes, they think they can sign Rolen to a long-term deal, and yes, they think he’ll be happier, but right now, that’s a bigger gamble than the Phillies are taking with Polanco.

3

Well, as a Cardinals fan, I think it is the best trade Philly ever made. Seriously though, you guys didn’t make out real well. Polanco’s a decent player, but there is some question about him being the everyday third baseman. In St. Louis, he was often platooned with Albert Pujols at third. Timlin is a good middle reliever guy, but you aren’t going to build a pitching staff around him, plus he has been in the league like ten years or so. As for Bud, well, he really struggled this year. If he can pull out of it and return to form, you guys did well. If not, you got screwed.

4

dan, first off: Go Phils!

Second: If we hadn’t dealt Rolen before the deadline he would have walked at the end of the season leaving us with nothing. I wasn’t expecting a blockbuster star-for-star trade. Why trade your star when you can get ours just by waiting a few months. This deal is mutally benifical: they get Rolen during the season and possible post-season. We get something as compared to nothing. Who knows? I wasn’t too big on the Schilling deal, now I can’t imagine the Phils without Lee or Padilla (well, maybe without Lee since Giambi arrived. I’m curious how that will play itself out.).

5

Ha! of course I get one response from a Phillies fan, and two from Cardinals fans…

Serviceable? Yippee!!! :wink:

I know one can put Polanco just about anywhere, and that’s good - if you’re a super-utility man. We need a 3B.

Smith might turn out to be something, but he’s not so young that the roadblocks he’s run into can’t be viewed as problematic. The Phillies have picked up numerous hot young pitchers from other teams, only to see them stink up the joint (or at least fail to reach their promise - see Paul Byrd, Bruce Chen, Tommy Greene, Tyler Green, and so on).

Timlin is what he is, which isn’t a whole hell of a lot. Many people believe that a closer is a luxury that the bad teams can’t afford. If a closer’s a luxury, what’s that make the middle-relief guy?

My point is just that there’s no “centerpiece” of this trade. We got three guys who are OK at best - well, potentially OK, anyway.

Not as big of a gamble, no. Rolen will cost a lot more, but he’ll probably make less than what he was offered by the Phillies in the first place. Also, the fans of St. Louis are traditionally a lot more supportive of their players than those in Philadelphia (at least on the outside); the conventional wisdom is that intangibles could sway Rolen to stay on - and besides, it’s not like the Cardinals don’t contend every year.

Bah! We didn’t get something at all. Ok, at the end of the season Rolen may or may not walk from the Cardinals - but the thing is, he’s a young star player and does fit in with them. What about the guys we got? Is Timlin a long-term player? No. Are Smith and Polanco? Maybe, and maybe not. I bet if they really wanted to pry Smith and Polanco from the Cards they could have offered up someone less significant, perhaps even in the off season.

It was a crappy deal unless you’re a Cardinal fan, no doubt about it.

6

And the problem would be…?

The Cardinals definitely got the better end of the deal, just like in the McGwire trade (and to a lesser extent the Edmonds trade, although Adam Kennedy has been good in Anaheim.) The Cards are now, as Michael Wilbon put it, the best team in the National League. They have an all Gold Glove infield now, they will get much better production from third base, and Tino Martinez is now the “World’s Most Dangerous #7 Hitter.”

As a Cardinals fan, I hope that Rolen stays. I really think he probably will, just like Jimmy Edmonds. With him, the Cards can contend for the next 4 or 5 years, and probably challenge the Yankees.

Anyway, not to hijack, but if you were Tony LaRussa, would you bat Rolen ahead or behind of J.D. Drew?

-brianjedi (I bleed Cardinal red)

7

You mean the days on which Drew’s not hurt? Hm…

I’d probably bat Drew ahead of him.

8

Hmph. At least YOU got players you’ve actually HEARD of. The Indians traded Russell Branyan, Bartolo Colon, Chuck Finley, and Paul Shuey, and wind up with two guys anybody has ever heard of. And they’re Lee Stevens and Terry Mulholand. Sure - some of the prospects will pan out eventually - but not all of 'em will.

I like Polanco, actually. Dunno why.

9

Yeah, but you traded Colon and Finley for prospects - you may not have heard of them, but there’s a chance you might someday.

10

Is the “chance” that I might someday hear from them enough?

11

Let’s not forget the Cards also got Doug Nickel - the #1 closer in the Phillies’ triple A system. Let’s also not forget that Rolen said it was a “dream come true” to play at Busch stadium…

I honestly have no idea why the Phillies made this trade…but I don’t care - GO CARDS!!! BWAAA HA HA HA HA!!!

Actually, I am not a fan of the Chuck Finley for Luis Garcia trade…39 year-old pitcher with, shall we say, distracting home issues, for the sole reason we gave Dustin Hermanson to the Red Sox. I have a feeling that one will bite us in the ass…

12

Winnowill - I’ll say it is. Hope beats no hope any day.

13

Actually, Winnowill, Mulholland was a starter on the Phils in the early 90s. He was pretty good. As I recall he became a reliver and was dominating at that job. He’s a veteran prescence and a good guy.

What’s with Paul Byrd? Apparently he’s good again and on the trading block.

14

its not a good trade for Philadelphia
its a good deal for Scott
its a good deal for the cards
its a great deal for Jasper

15

Mulholland is still a good situational lefty from time to time. He’s now on I think his 35th team, and he’s about 541 years old. He’s been pretty bad lately, but his lefthandedness is always gonna be an asset. Some of those guys pitch till they’re 1000 years old, you know.

As for Byrd, there aren’t many good, solid pitchers out there, and he’s on a team that’s certainly not gonna contend anytime soon. So he’s dangled as trade bait. He’s another ex-Phil, incidentally. I thought I heard on Baseball Tonight that the Royals wouldn’t mind trading him because they feel confident he’ll come back as a free agent after the season, that he really wants to pitch in KC.

16

Yeah - I know who Mulholland is. As I mentioned, he’s one of two that I HAVE heard of - however, I have also heard that he’s 38 years old and that his best seasons are behind him. Sure, he’s a veteran - but so was Paul Shuey (and a much younger one!) So, for that matter, was Chuck Finley.

I dunno. I remember how the team came up in the 90s, and I remember the trade that brought Sandy Alomar and Carlos Baerga to Cleveland - they traded their best player. Sometimes you have to do that. But…Baerga and Alomar were ready for the Big Leagues. Not many of these guys are - a bunch were sent to AA Akron. They’re two to four years away, some of 'em - and some of them will never get farther than AAA Buffalo. AND the Tribe of 1990 traded ONE good player. So help me, if I see Jim Thome or Omar Vizquel turn up on the trade circuit, I’ll bust a gut.

And…

After I typed this and had issues with my login, I turn on the Cleveland/Oakland game to discover that the Indians have ALSO traded Ricardo Rincon! WTF? They trade both their right-handed setup guy and their left-handed setup guy? I thought the whole idea behind getting Mulholland was to give them a second lefty in the bullpen!

17

I would guess they’re trying to dump salary and start over - maybe they feel that the guys they have aren’t good enough to get bona fide prospects or ready-for-prime-time players.

I haven’t seen the Rincon trade, but from your tone I suspect they got diddly in return. But then again, Rincon’s a good pitcher, not the best pitcher… so you can reasonably see them not getting much in return.

The Indians operate a lot like the Phillies, though. They try to get young guys in there, avoiding free agency for the most part. They behave like a small-market team when they’re signing and re-signing players, but they’re really a middle- or large-market. So they posture as it suits them.

18

To be honest, I don’t think Rolen is as valuable as he’s made out to be. He’s a very good player, but consider honestly his value as of July 2002 as a trade commodity:

  1. He’s a free agent in three months, so you might not have him for more than 50 games
  2. He has a long history of injury problems
  3. He’s a fine hitter, but he isn’t Mike Schmidt or anything

How much, really, is a few months of Scott Rolen worth? All you’re getting is 40-50 games of him.

19

  1. He might not be a free agent. He’s eligible for it, but the Cardinals have indicated they will try everything to re-sign him. I think that was one big reason they picked him up - they didn’t want him to be a rental. Plus, Rolen seems enamoured with the city and its fans. My guess is he’ll stay.

  2. He doesn’t really have a long history of injuries; he’s been nagged by ankle and back injuries, but he’s still put up some pretty good numbers - this year, he’ll knock in over 100 runs. The one thing he doesn’t do - yet - is hit the long ball, and scouts say that’s because he’s not being aggressive enough in the count. That’ll come. He’s still young.

  3. Comparison with Mike Schmidt is completely irrelevant - no other 3B in the majors is Mike Schmidt, either. Still, Rolen is regarded as the best fielding 3B out there - he gets to balls that many others can only dream about. The hitting is good - perhaps not as good as expected - and should improve.

20

<Can’t resist urge …>

Let’s hope nobody the Cards play gets Tawny on their roster…she is a sure fire hitter of Finley.

Sorry.