Please explain todays woman and "50 Shades of Gray".

In My Humble Opinion
21

As women’s rights have improved over the last few decades, women’s happiness has declined - women were, on average, happier in the 1960s than they are today. Maybe that’s part of it.

“With great power comes great responsibility.” Autonomy is a good thing, but then you don’t get taken care of, and you make your own decisions, which comes usually with regrets, no matter what you decide. Being dominated and controlled means you never have regrets, because you never got any real choice. Maybe some significant fraction of women want to fantasize about what it would be like if some rich, handsome, dominant male took over and made all the decisions and removed all responsibility from them by forcing them to submit.

I haven’t read the book or seen the movie, and I find BDSM in any form either incomprehensible or disgusting, but FWIW I thought some dominant men tend to experience the same sort of thing, where they find relief from being “in charge” with some dominatrix who orders them around. (I have no cite for that - just IMO).

I think the Twilight series, one of which I read and I saw the first movie, is a somewhat different dynamic. Twilight is an adolescent fantasy of a socially and physically awkward girl, who is selected to be loved by a handsome, mysterious stranger, and they can’t have sex at all, at least in the beginning. Thus the adolescent girl gets the attractions of romance without the complications of sex. But the vampire guy woos the girl and makes her out to be special, basically with no effort on her part, and without the expectation that she will have to have any kind of two-way physical relationship, which always makes matters more complicated.

Regards,
Shodan

22

I don’t think the appeal is particularly complicated. It’s a fantasy involving “forbidden” games, control and power relations. Such fantasies have always been popular among both men and women.

It would be unfortunate to view the popularity of this particular franchise as proof that all women really want to be dominated and controlled in their real lives. Of course that would be nonsense. Reading or watching a mildly titillating work of fiction does not mean that most women would be interested in actually signing a contract with the likes of Christian Grey.

I do find it interesting and rather depressing that fiction featuring passive heroines still strikes a chord among girls and women. The Twilight garbage is a perfect example (and of course, 50 Shades of Grey began life as Twilight fan fiction). But I suppose I see it as a reflection of the persistent sexism that is still present in the general culture and that many girls and women have internalized.

When I watched 50 Shades of Grey, my attention was focused less on the (rather boring) sex scenes and more on noticing every time Jamie Dornan’s real accent slipped through his fake American accent. It was quite distracting. And his real accent is much sexier.

23

OP, fantasies about rape, ravishment, and being held down or dominated are some of the most common sexual fantasies in women, as shown by surveys going back to the '70s at least. 50 Shades was far from the first book to exploit this fact (see: bodice rippers). To the extent such ideas are to circumvent guilt, these fantasies were probably even more common in the distant past when sexual mores were more conservative and women had to depend on men to survive more than today.

That these fantasies are so common has led to plenty of arguments about what it means, ranging from one side playing up evo-psych red pill ideology, or saying this proves women should be subordinate, or they secretly want to be raped, to another side saying it’s the brainwashing of the patriarchy. That these fantasies are also common in men is rarely brought up.

This is a split in feminism. Liberal fems support women making their own choices, whereas lefty radical fems say choices aren’t made in a vacuum and that self-objectification, pandering to men, and exploitation aren’t empowerment and harm women’s liberation. They generally denounce porn and BDSM. Reminds me of debates about “ethical consumerism” between capitalists and socialists.

24

The part of the brain that has to do with sexual arousal is much older and more primitive than the part that deals with rational thought.

25

I haven’t read or watched either 50 shades or Twilight, but I read a deconstruction of Twilight, and of 50 shades (esp. why it’s not real BDSM) and I think you should cut a 14year old some slack.

I think part of the Problem that those who find it creepy and unhealthy and those who like it is that the first Group (the "haters) see how it’s creepy / bad (Grey actually coercing the woman, the Vampire being a Stalker), while the second Group (the “Lovers”) see the surface romance of how much Attention the dream guy pays to the plain woman, and think that’s desireable.

I wonder how much that has to do with (Sub) culture that woman are taught by Society that men pay Attention to them if they are important or beautiful, not otherwise, so a good-looking guy paying Attention to them is good, no matter the method. A lot of older, Mainstream romantic movies from Hollywood have behaviour by the hero that today, now that things are discussed openly, are called stalkerish or bad, but were accepted by Mainstream audience as normal or romantic back then.

While I wouldn’t go as far as calling it “brainwashing of patriarchy”, there is an element of not noticing how Society conditions women to follow men instead of being Independent.

A (Sub) culture where a certain behaviour is accepted by everybody can look weird to Outsiders. Look at the Billy Graham rule - considered normal in evangelical circles, considered “WTF, men are not horny animals, women are not Vamps, both are humand and able to sit together in a room without sex Happening” for other People.
Or the “Left Behind” series (dissected on slacktivist http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2017/03/31/lbcf-no-128-beats/ ) which sold millions of copies and is well-liked in evangelical circles, but a badly written non-Thriller with terrible, terrible People as protagonists by other People.

Lastly, although I don’t know how psychologists see this, I’ve heard from female writers that writing “bad” Scenes (like rape, Submission etc.) (even if they were raped themselves) can be liberating because as author they are in control, and they know it’s not real. It’s very different reading a Report of what happened in real life to real People, which makes you feel sick. Reading /Writing about fictional People, you know it’s not real, and everything will end up good (the power of love…)

26

Ahh the money.

Yeah, christian buys her a car, has his own helicopter, pays for her apartment and just about everything else. Damn! And she is only 19! Heck back then when I was dating I could barely afford to take a girl to the movies. Plus throw in that he’s handsome and gives her great sex.

27

You know that actually got me thinking about when I was younger.

I could be pretty cool on the first couple of dates with a woman. I had some good jokes, stories, etc… I could make a woman laugh, shower her with compliments and fun, really show her a good time.

But then, I hate to admit it but I only had so much of that. Only so many funny stories. Only so much energy. Only so much money. That after awhile I just couldnt keep up that same level of energy into the relationship.

Which to me is basically saying, after dating a person for awhile, things get real. Peoples true selves really show and maybe they are good but maybe not. Who knows will christian and the woman break up later on?

Could she handle being just a wife to him if he couldnt keep up this intensity?

Will fantasies cause them to break up or at least seek other relationships?

28

I’d like to add in, what would happen if things change?

For example, this christian guy heads this big corporation BUT, still finds all this time to woe her. In real life corporate men like him might work 60 hours a week.

Another example, what if he loses his money? Hey, companies go under all the time and even billionaires go bankrupt. He has a very expensive lifestyle and that requires spending alot. I doubt he has much savings.

Could their relationship last if he lost alot of his money? I mean not like going dirt poor but having a significant income loss so he has to sell alot of his toys, drop the chauffeur, drop all the gifts to her, and move into a cheaper apartment.

PS Is there a market for USED BDSM stuff?

29

Nitpick: she is about to be a college graduate when they meet. She’s 22, and IIRC he’s 28.

30

My wife’s comment on 50 Shades of Gray: A man who would handcuff me to a bed and then hit me with a whip better never unlock those handcuffs…"

31

Eh, I’ve never read or watched the 50 shades deal, but mostly because the excerpts I read upon review were so dreary. However, when I was a young teen in the early 90s, I had my fill of BDSM-oriented “historical romances” that were smuttier smut than ever smutted, all in my local tiny rural library, and no bones were made about it from my geriatric librarian or anyone else. :slight_smile: And some of those Fabio-and hoopskirted drenched novels were quite good- in multiple ways-I remember one in particular getting me through a French class exam I didn’t deign to study for. :smiley:

32

I can’t believe I sat through 50 Shades of Vomit. Had I paid to see the movie, I would have really been pissed. That was 1 hour and 13 minutes of my life I’ll never get back.

33

There’s two sides to the story. There are women who feel the book empowers them. Not that they want to feel like sex objects, but that it makes them feel as if they can have that kind of sex or whatever occurs in the novels or in the film, and not be judged by it. In the same way that BDSM proponents have become more open in the last decade than they were in the last fifty years, as an example. Then, of course, there are women who read it because they get off to the idea of being treated like that, where both people benefit in the relationship, otherwise it’s truly abusive if it’s man on woman all the time. There is also the fact that there are married women out there who read the books mainly just to get a little spice in their life.

It should surprise no one that the fiction market’s biggest seller is the romance genre (which may encompass erotic literature), then mystery/thriller, science fiction, adventures, and so forth, with horror being the worst selling genre.

34

AIUI, the TL;DR explanation is that there are many women who have submissive fantasies, but are afraid to make such feelings known in a feminist society/culture where they could face a lot of criticism or ridicule for it. So when books/movies like Fifty Shades comes along, it’s highly popular because it taps into an unaddressed desire/need.

It all boils down to a spinoff of the Bradley Effect: Anything that is considered taboo or “wrong” in society, will have many more people who like it, in secrecy, than are willing to admit to it in public - whether it’s voting for Trump, being creationist, or being a submissive woman.

35

I expected something like that (I saw the first movie, didn’t read the book). As soon as he admited to be damaged, I expected that the female character would fix him and all would be well. It’s not different from any chick flick, or any romance novel for women.

A former gf was writing such romances on order, not under her own name, with specifications (what should happen when, who the characters should be, etc…For instance the setting had to be an hospital, and the main male character a doctor, around page 40 the starting romance should be disrupted by an evil female antagonist, they should have sex for the first time around page 60, and so on…), so I have a superficial familiarity with the genre.

This.

And by the way, these books/movies have been widely criticized by the D/s community, mostly on the basis of the guy being a creep and it giving a bad name to BDSM, but I think those criticisms are unwarranted, since all male protagonists of romance movies are equally creepy, so it’s just business as usual for the genre. On the other hand, it doesn’t even remotely looks like any actual D/s relationship on any level, and as result IMO has essentially no appeal for most people involved in this lifestyle (although I know of at least one submissive woman who liked the book, I believe she’s an odd exception).

36

I find this highly doubtful. It might be for some women, but not for the vast majority.

Snippets of an overlooked post that made some very good points:

37

Didn’t Fifty Shades of Grey* start out as Twilight fanfiction before being rewritten?

*I had to look the book up to see how it spelled “Grey”.

38

The proper way. :slight_smile:

39

Yes. Which was partly a factor in its success – preexisting fanbase, and word-of-web/word-of-social-media being far more effective than old-lit word-of-mouth/critic reviews.

Contrast 30 years earlier the book and film 9 and 1/2 Weeks, that got essentially nowhere because who the heck had heard of the book and word of mouth was “Lame D/S soft porn”. (Mind you, 1980s Kim Basinger sure can keep her hat on, as far as I’m concerned… mmm, mmm)

40

That’s what I’ve heard, too. (And a pity for giving normal People the Impression that fanfiction is badly written, when there are really well-written fanfics out there.)