Please explain todays woman and "50 Shades of Gray".

[constanze]

@clairobscur

And by the way, these books/movies have been widely criticized by the D/s community, mostly on the basis of the guy being a creep and it giving a bad name to BDSM, but I think those criticisms are unwarranted, since all male protagonists of romance movies are equally creepy, so it’s just business as usual for the genre. On the other hand, it doesn’t even remotely looks like any actual D/s relationship on any level, and as result IMO has essentially no appeal for most people involved in this lifestyle (although I know of at least one submissive woman who liked the book, I believe she’s an odd exception).

I wonder if this is part of the Appeal, too. In real life*, those People who accept their taste is BDSM or similar, often (not always of course but significantly) recognize that People are indiviudals, and that tastes vary, and esp. in BDSM, respect (and safe words) are important, so there’s a lot of talking about what each Person is comfortable with and what not (which leads to happier sex for BDSMers than for average vanilla).

Showing BDSM as sadistic power Play gives the average vanilla wife (esp. from a more traditional Background) the satisfaction that this form of sex is creepy and bad, so I’m justified for keeping things vanilla (even when I’m not Feeling very satisfied with the “man Mounts woman, inserts Tab A in Slot B, dismounts, starts snoring” vanilla sex). She doesn’t get to read how real BDSM works, where she might get the idea that talking about what your Partner likes is important, or respecting that your Partner doesn’t like the same things - so despite being kinky, Shades of Grey is system-affirming and therefore -supporting.

*according to what individual BSDMers say on the Internet; and what a study by Researchers asking People with kinks like BSDM and “vanilla” People about their sex life and satisfaction with it

[DrDeth]

@igor_frankensteen

I suggest that this is vastly more simple to understand than anyone has said so far.

All you have to look at, is the star of the film. Jamie Dornan. Had the exact same film been made with the lead being played by the opposite of a RICH AND POWERFUL PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE MAN, the reaction to it would have been very VERY different.
.

Yes, he is a rich man, very attractive, sophisticated, intelligent, who spends a lot of time trying to make his woman happy. Yes, he is Kinky. She is (according to the books) mostly normal looking, attractive but hardly beautiful. And not wealthy.

wikia :*Anastasia describes herself as a pale, brown-haired young woman with blue eyes too big for her face. Ana has a fresh, youthful face and innocent appeal. She is described by Christian as beautiful, very attractive, and alluring, but she is shown to be rather insecure about being slim, pale, and scruffy. She does not wear much makeup, if any at all, usually wears jeans, and only owns one skirt at the start of the series. She classifies herself as a “t-shirt and converse shoes” type of girl.

It’s the same fantasy that has sold a million "bodice rippers’ but with a little added B&D kink.

[Urbanredneck]

@constanze

I wonder if this is part of the Appeal, too. In real life*, those People who accept their taste is BDSM or similar, often (not always of course but significantly) recognize that People are indiviudals, and that tastes vary, and esp. in BDSM, respect (and safe words) are important, so there’s a lot of talking about what each Person is comfortable with and what not (which leads to happier sex for BDSMers than for average vanilla).

Showing BDSM as sadistic power Play gives the average vanilla wife (esp. from a more traditional Background) the satisfaction that this form of sex is creepy and bad, so I’m justified for keeping things vanilla (even when I’m not Feeling very satisfied with the “man Mounts woman, inserts Tab A in Slot B, dismounts, starts snoring” vanilla sex). She doesn’t get to read how real BDSM works, where she might get the idea that talking about what your Partner likes is important, or respecting that your Partner doesn’t like the same things - so despite being kinky, Shades of Grey is system-affirming and therefore -supporting.

*according to what individual BSDMers say on the Internet; and what a study by Researchers asking People with kinks like BSDM and “vanilla” People about their sex life and satisfaction with it

First of all, your an excellent writer Constanze. I wish I could put out such words and make points so well. Love your description of vanilla sex.

Back to the topic, I do think the movie has encouraged couples to try something like this because they said their have been some injuries that came from people trying. Now would any woman admit that she bent over her husbands knee when they got home? I doubt it.

[LSLGuy]

I agree with the consensus so far, but here’s one factor nobody’s yet mentioned although coincidentally the OP came close just above.

Things said can’t be unsaid. Topics broached can’t be unbroached.

There are probably lots of people who are in stable long term relationships who’re having OKish vanilla sex lives. But something is missing. They might well be interested in exploring BDSM or partner swapping or 3-ways or whatever. The specific interest doesn’t matter.

But more than anything, they’re afraid to raise the issue with their spouse / SO. “Honey, I want to try some X; what do you think? Ewww!!! You’re SICK!!” It’s the fear of the possible reaction that keeps the interest bottled up.

The book & movie made it possible for legions of such people to have the topic broached for them. And to gauge their SO’s reaction from a position of safety. Some people saw hostility and retreated back into vanilla, others saw enough opening to dare to have that conversation.

This whole issue doesn’t play so much amongst people who’re still dating and changing partners every so often. But I bet amongst the many folks in committed relationships that aren’t uber-open about sex in general it plays bigly.
There’s something really sick about a society that refuses to let people talk about all things sexual in a matter-of-fact manner. Imagine if we treated sex like we do cooking cooking. Or far worse, treated cooking like we do sex. Imagine each person has to figure it out on their own how to heat vegetables and what parts of a grapefruit are edible? Crazy.

Yet that’s certainly how the less enlightened half of our populace lives.

[Musicat]

Once there was The Story of O…

[Velocity]

@DrDeth

Yes, he is a rich man, very attractive, sophisticated, intelligent, who spends a lot of time trying to make his woman happy. Yes, he is Kinky. She is (according to the books) mostly normal looking, attractive but hardly beautiful. And not wealthy.

wikia :*Anastasia describes herself as a pale, brown-haired young woman with blue eyes too big for her face. Ana has a fresh, youthful face and innocent appeal. She is described by Christian as beautiful, very attractive, and alluring, but she is shown to be rather insecure about being slim, pale, and scruffy. She does not wear much makeup, if any at all, usually wears jeans, and only owns one skirt at the start of the series. She classifies herself as a “t-shirt and converse shoes” type of girl.

It’s the same fantasy that has sold a million "bodice rippers’ but with a little added B&D kink.

The “Mr. Great falls for Ms. Average” fantasy.

[DrDeth]

@Velocity

The “Mr. Great falls for Ms. Average” fantasy.

Exactly.

Twilight is the same.

[BigT]

Because, for some reason, the books were not considered porn, making them acceptable over other erotica. You can say you read 50 Shades of Gray out loud, but not most erotic novels. And it reached an audience that eschews literary erotica.

And the movie is popular, despite reducing the explicitness dramatically, because there really aren’t any other movies in this genre anymore. Movies for women are those romantic comedies, not risque thrillers where you get both sex and danger. (And science shows that women get more aroused when they are excited or even nervous, unlike men who get more aroused when relaxed.)

People forget that the first book, Annastasia specifically said NO to Christian. It ends with them broken up, specifically because Gray is trying to control her. She never signs the contract, but Gray keeps on trying to control her.

The story is one of those “I’m gonna fix this man,” which has long had an appeal. All of his abusiveness is explained by his past. And if only the perfect loving woman could fix him, he’d be perfect, too. And he’s her first! As in, she never had an orgasm before all that.

But, getting back to the OP, Anna absolutely HATES the fact that he’s trying to control him. She likes being protected, but not controlled. It’s a common dichotomy.

It’s not that hard to put together. It’s ultimately the princess fantasy, where you are taken care of by a rich guy without being controlled, mixed with the “fix it” mentality, mixed with just a taste of the forbidden.

Or, at least, that’s what I came up with when I asked this question. Because, what I know for sure it isn’t is the idea that women secretly want to be controlled by men, or, worse, secretly want to be emotionally abused.

Granted, I’m not a woman, but I have read a lot of opinions by women.

[BigT]

@constanze

I wonder if this is part of the Appeal, too. In real life*, those People who accept their taste is BDSM or similar, often (not always of course but significantly) recognize that People are indiviudals, and that tastes vary, and esp. in BDSM, respect (and safe words) are important, so there’s a lot of talking about what each Person is comfortable with and what not (which leads to happier sex for BDSMers than for average vanilla).

Showing BDSM as sadistic power Play gives the average vanilla wife (esp. from a more traditional Background) the satisfaction that this form of sex is creepy and bad, so I’m justified for keeping things vanilla (even when I’m not Feeling very satisfied with the “man Mounts woman, inserts Tab A in Slot B, dismounts, starts snoring” vanilla sex). She doesn’t get to read how real BDSM works, where she might get the idea that talking about what your Partner likes is important, or respecting that your Partner doesn’t like the same things - so despite being kinky, Shades of Grey is system-affirming and therefore -supporting.

*according to what individual BSDMers say on the Internet; and what a study by Researchers asking People with kinks like BSDM and “vanilla” People about their sex life and satisfaction with it

This isn’t untrue, but it misses the fact that they sell a lot of light BDSM toys with this. So I think the message is also that it’s okay to engage a little bit, like, say, handcuffs or bit of spanking .

[Spice_Weasel]

Fascinating conversation.

I can’t stand 50 Shades of Grey. I have like 1,000 axes to grind with it, starting with its gross representation of BDSM and ending with the glorification of abusive behavior. Oh, and the writing. Jesus, the writing is so bad. It’s a personal affront to me, as an aspiring writer, that she got that dreck published.

That said, I am all about male domination and bondage in the bedroom. It is a relatively common fantasy among women and men. I can’t explain why I am wired this way but it has nothing to do with secretly wanting to be submissive in other contexts of my life. I’m in an egalitarian relationship and happy with it. I don’t cede control, or want to, in other aspects of my life. There’s just a visceral part of me that needs to be dominated sexually. It doesn’t really matter why – it’s not something I can change, any more than I can change the color of my eyes. I was afraid to tell my husband this for a long time, but eventually I did, and he was surprisingly cool with it.

As far as romance novels and women go, fantasy is complicated. It is true that men generally want their fantasies to happen and women generally do not. I fantasize about things that would scare the shit out of me in reality, that even make my own brain go “WTF was that?” You want an explanation, I don’t have one. I’ve tried to learn more about this subject because it fascinates me, but nobody really knows why people are turned on by the things that turn them on. I remember reading about a guy who could only orgasm if someone threw nectarines at his stomach. Who knows?

I am continually perplexed by the female obsession with romance archetypes. One thing I have figured out is that most women read romance novels for different reasons than I do, but that’s as far as my comprehension goes. There are certain romance novel clishes that annoy the crap out of me (the powerful billionaire, gag), but I write romantic themes in my own novels and I don’t really want to write anything else. I want romance novels to be something different than what they are – at least somewhat realistic, with compelling character development. So, that is what I try to write. There is always going to be an element of fantasy, as with ANY genre fiction, but I try to put a literary spin on it.

But what that means is I won’t violate the ethical rules of my world and excuse it by labeling it ‘‘fantasy.’’ I feel a social responsibility toward my subject matter that it’s obvious many romance authors, such as EL James, do not feel. My first effort, which does touch on (actual) BDSM, draws clear hard lines between consensual power games and sexual assault. I don’t think of my book, at all, as fantasy wish fulfillment, which is supposedly why women read this stuff. It’s just about these two deeply flawed people who find strength in each other. I want to write about love, because I believe in love, because I have love. Period.

[QUOTE=clairobscur]
And by the way, these books/movies have been widely criticized by the D/s community, mostly on the basis of the guy being a creep and it giving a bad name to BDSM, but I think those criticisms are unwarranted, since all male protagonists of romance movies are equally creepy, so it’s just business as usual for the genre.
[/QUOTE]

Eh, I dunno. In most mainstream romance novels these days, the hero doesn’t rape the heroine and they aren’t abusive fucks like Christian. It’s also particularly upsetting because BDSM is already so misunderstood. Most people know that creepy romance-novel behavior is unacceptable in real life, but they don’t know that BDSM isn’t only practiced by control-freak abusive assholes like Christian Grey. That book buys into all the worst stereotypes about BDSM – right down to the notion that only a sick and troubled person would want to practice it, and that true healing would lead to the (presumably healthy) desire for vanilla sex.

So, to summarize about 50 Shades:

1. Reinforces dangerous notion that abusive men can be healed and changed
2. Confuses obsessive, controlling behavior with love
3. Reinforces bad stereotypes about BDSM, and… worst of all…
4. …is written so badly it’s physically painful to read.

[JRDelirious]

@Spice_Weasel

Fascinating conversation.

I can’t stand 50 Shades of Grey. I have like 1,000 axes to grind with it, starting with its gross representation of BDSM and ending with the glorification of abusive behavior. Oh, and the writing. Jesus, the writing is so bad. It’s a personal affront to me, as an aspiring writer, that she got that dreck published.

( … )

4. …is written so badly it’s physically painful to read.

And to add to your annoyance, its commercial success confirms that the big sales money out there is among people who can’t tell bad writing when looking right at it but to the contrary, think it’s good just because they like what it’s about.

Of course, its parent-work *Twilight *had already shown the way.