Well let’s use fox hunting then, rather than deer hunting. That isn’t done for food purposes, it’s done for the sheer enjoyment of it.
Well I think this makes up a pretty small section of society, but one that no doubt exists. Given that it exists, however, surely it is better that they take their homicidal urges out on animals rather than people?
It’s not an either/or; it’s a both/and. That’s why such broken specimens need to either have the fear put into them before they progress to torturing humans or need to be removed from society.
Certainly preferable, yes. And I don’t advocate punishing animal abusers with a punishment equivalent to what one would get for torturing, abusing, or killing a human. Or anything even close. I wouldn’t support 9 years here, for instance. I would probably recommend a fine, community service, probation, and therapy. A second offense I would treat much more seriously, as now we might be seeing indications of irrepressible psychosis manifesting as an inability to restrain oneself from engaging in violent behavior even in the face of severe consequences.
I’m not convinced one leads to the other. If you have proof otherwise, then fine. But certain cultures, the Chinese for one, don’t see anything wrong with animal cruelty. (At least it is my understanding that traditionally they didn’t; with globalisation and western influence, this may be changing).
The number of people who kill other humans is far smaller than the number who kill animals. Many people know killing humans is wrong, but don’t feel the same way about killing animals.
Humans have families and people who care about them who will all be devestated if they are gone. More pragmatically, they also have jobs and responsibilities which will suffer by their loss.
Animals killed for their meat don’t have any such thing. Killing animals does not break the social contract that we, as a civilized people, have set up. Do you know anything at all about basic philosophy? There are many practical reasons why murdering other people has no place in a civilized society. But there is nothing of the kind that applies to animals, at least not to livestock animals meant for food (as opposed to pets, which obviously provide important companionship.)
This is always so hard… I was having a problem with rats I mistakenly thought were mice, so I put out mousetraps. (the rats were all over the kitchen in the middle of the night, eating everything and shitting everywhere. Turns out they were tree rats that had found a big hole under/behind the refrigerator.) One night I heard the trap snap…then something that can only be called screaming. Rat screaming. I went out…and oh lord. Bad. WAY bad. Fucking HORRIFYING. It was alive, stumbling around…I became hysterical. Because I knew I had to kill it, but I didn’t have the nerve to do it directly, in person. But ohmygod it had to be done!!! FAST!!! So I woke up my neighbor and made him come over. He caught it, took it outside, and nailed it with a brick.
A few years ago my ex and I were alarmed when a dog we were fostering came into the house with his muzzle covered in blood, which we quickly determined was not his. We discovered the not-yet-dead baby possum in the patio. It took my ex an hour to work up the balls to kill it with a spade. But there was never a question that it had to be killed.
carm, I’m getting the feeling that you are pretending to be dumber than you really are. This is a relatively common tactic around here, and employed in a sufficiently deft Socratic way, it’s fine. But when you have to keep coming back to it, re-asking the same things, and people are just 
at what you’re trying to say… you’re doing it wrong.
In your first post in this thread, you said you “abhor cruelty to animals.” You’ve also said that you eat meat and so forth. These are common positions, and most people have no trouble understanding why using animal products isn’t necessarily inconsistent with opposing animal cruelty. (We can talk about the factory farms elsewhere.)
Yet you are claiming to believe that killing an animal, by any means or in any circumstances, must be worse than inflicting non-lethal suffering. So I ask you to either confirm that, yes, you really do hold that hypocritical position, or to explain in plain language what you’re actually trying to say.
I don’t need to pretend.
No, it prevents more suffering and death in the form of unwanted puppies that turn into unwanted dogs.
No, because there is none. See previous, and note that you are making a strange conclusion about the “purpose” of an animal and its capacity to suffer. They are unrelated.
We obviously can’t ask the cows, we can only make our arguments.
Here’s mine:
Cows have no self-awareness nor a concept of death. Their fear is pure instinct, it does not come from a logical thought that death is a bummer. So the facts that they die, die sooner than they might in nature, or die to be eaten by others are all meaningless to them. Pretty much all animals, even the most intelligent, have the gift of being very much in the moment, in the present, in the now, so contemplating what might have been or could be really isn’t something they do. It’s what we do. We also, when seeking enlightenment, strive to be more like animals, in that we strive to be more present in the moment.
All to say, cows don’t really have any feelings about death at all, apart from maybe the last few minutes before it happens. (And even that is becoming less and less true, thank you, Temple Grandin.)
On the other hand, cows, along with every other mammal, bird, and who knows what retiles, amphibians, fish and insects, has the capacity to feel pain. The more advanced animals have the capacity to be psychologically stressed by crowding, lack of movement, lack of access to fresh air. They are also more prone to disease and the discomfort of disease in closed and crowded conditions, as well as the distress of standing in their waste.
Therefore, given these truths, I believe that if you asked the cows “Do you think that being free range, vs. confined makes no difference, because you’re going to end up dead either way and death is more upsetting to you?” the answer would be: “What’s death? Can I please go outside now?”
And if you asked pigs in particular: “which would you rather: live your natural lifespan confined to this pen where you cannot even turn around, churning out piglets endlessly and breathing the ammonia stench of your hundreds of sisters living the same way, or die in a year, but spend it hanging around in the sunshine, wallowing, rolling in the grass, breathing fresh air and doing what you please?” I believe that pigs, being the extremely intelligent creatures they are, would reply:“Are you fucking kidding me? I’ll take six fucking DAYS and then death if you’ll just let me free from this hellhole!!! Hell, six hours! No, forget it, just go ahead and shoot me right now if it means I’m free of this relentless misery!”
And if you asked chickens, “So, how do you like this perpetual darkness and having just a few inches of space, the shit of your pals raining down on you? Better than death, isnt’ it?” she would respond by continuing to do whts she was doing when you asked: tear out her feathers in a neurotic response to her bizarre living conditions.
And your argument would be…?
So your dog and ex teamed up on a killing spree to capture and bludgeon to death an innocent marsupial child with a shovel after leaving it suffering in agony for an hour? How many rats must die before we put a stop to this madness?!!
The unspeakable horror! 9 years would be too few. Psychopaths like this should be removed from society before their insatiable blood lust graduates to humans.
This is documented fact in certain breeds, like pit bulls and school shooters. They are happy just killing other animals and target shooting, but after putting up with them long enough, eventually the inevitable ocurrs and society pays the price.
//sarcasm off//
Why does every human foible great or small have to be a society-at-large issue? They guy fucked up. Maybe he’s evil to the core, maybe not. Otherwise normal people have been known to do some pretty stupid stuff under stress and delusion.
Sheesh. :rolleyes:
Or we can talk about the factory farms now. Either way. Good post, stoid.
(bolding mine)
Really? You’re going there? This bit came after the //sarcasm off// part, so I’m assuming you’re serious. Kicking a dog to death in front of your kid is “fucking up”? So we give people a pass if they’re, I dunno, under stress from a long day at work? The value of dogs notwithstanding, a guy kicking a dog to death in front of his child is…well not okay, but understandable if it’s a one-time event?
I don’t think this guy was ‘under…delusion,’ whatever that means.
The guy didn’t fuck up, he IS fucked up.
Let me put it this way: does anyone here actually know anyone who has kicked an animal to death?
This isn’t something that the average person is capable of doing, psychologically.
You don’t see any space in between a pass an nine years in prison?
Can you point out exactly where I said give the guy a pass? Did you even notice where earlier I specifically said otherwise?
Glad you’re not a judge. :rolleyes:
Precisely!
I am maybe capable of maybe kicking a dog if I don’t know it and it’s attacking me or my dog. Kicking it to death??? Never.
Illegally, in most places.
So you think the children 7 and 11 are better off with their father in jail until they are 18 and 20? I’m not excusing what he did but there is no proof that he is violent towards his kids. He should have taken the dog to the shelter rather than abuse it but its not a good thing for his kids if he goes to jail for 9 years.
I can’t tell you how glad I am that you gave your post a title. Such a witty one too!
I’m not interested in pointing out where you’ve put words in my mouth, and have even less interest in going back and reading posts you made before you changed your mind. Have a nice day.
Stressed from a hard day at work?
If you have the time or interest, go read the story linked in the OP and see if you can catch up. But in any case, please don’t take it out on the dog. 
I wouldn’t call it understandable, but not something that warrants a prison sentence for a first offence. A hefty, inconveniently large fine and some community service definitely, but not prison.
On a second offence- especially if it’s aggravated enough or has a serious additional element to it, like painfully killing a kid’s pet to teach them a lesson, though, then that’s a different kettle of fish and at that point I think prison might become an option.