The only thing that piece of garbage deserves is a swift kick in the ass. You think you can talk him out of his hatred with logical reasoning? Good luck. This is not a movie. And who cares whether the Jews are “ethnically pure” or not? What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China?:mad: If you have friends like that, who needs enemies?
[end of rant]
He’s right, to an extent.
The Ten Tribes were exiled and have not been heard from again. True.
The remaining two tribes were exiled to Babylonia and more than half fo them never returned. True Again.
However, the Jewish community in Babylonia kept it’s cultural and religious identity. Unlike the Ten Tribes, they were not assimilated into their captor’s culture. They thrived as independent communities in Babylonia. It was there that they established the Rabbinical academies in Sura and Pumbedisa. It was there that they compiled the Babylonian Talmud. And it was from there that modern-day Orthodox Judaism (and, to a lesser extent, all Judaism) is derived. So, to say that the Jews of today have no connection to the Jews of ancient Israel is hogwash.
As for the “Jewish race” your “friend” is correct again. Since Jews accept converts, the Jewish people cannot be considered a “race” in the true sense of the word.
Zev Steinhardt
I guess we have different opinions. A wiser creature than I once said " Fear is the path to the Dark Side; fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. " and also **" While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior. " **
Thanks Zev…
One of these things is not like the others! One of these things just doesn’t belong!
[ hijack ]
I’m not sure I agree with either of these (somewhat different) sentiments or with any similar ones.
I have friends who are racist. Heck, I have one friend who thinks Reagan was a great president. I am also friends with athiests and Jews and Fundamentalist Christians, despite my own Catholicism.
I do not see friendship as predicated on one’s common beliefs.
I would never allow a racist friend to run their spiel past my kids, unanswered, but my relationship with any specific person is not limited to people with whom I agree. Friendships are based on a lot of other aspects of our personalities.
I would not give high hopes to ummm… yeahh…'s ability to “convert” his friend to the “right” way of seeing things. And if his friend is truly, deeply enmired in some “Aryan” group, (as opposed to a casual believer in their rantings), then the warnings that Sparculees have provided may be warranted. However, telling a person to refuse to associate with another because of ideologies seems a bit too close to the actions of the thought police, to me.
[ /hijack ] (Sorry)
Nonsensical.
(a) Inequality on a variety of points of comparision between individuals is a genetic fact.
(b) However, that does not indicate, ipso facto, that all inequality is genetic, and indeed if one is learned in genetics, one realizes that expression of traits is partially (even heavily) conditioned by the physical environment starting in the womb and moving forward through childhood.
© Inter-group or inter-population variation has been demonstrated on numerous bases to be a vanishingly small part of human variability – which is not terribly high to begin with. As such, a priori assertions of group traits on a genetic basis are not only without foundation, but reflect a rather tedious form of ignorance. I am sure he will cite one of those tedious mischaracterizations of genetic data that are so popular in such circles, you can come back with that and someone like myself or edwino (himself a geneticist in training) will be happy to dissect, with citation to primary literature if necessary.
(d) The natural law thing just makes not one whit of sense. Human society exists by its own set of rules constructed from natural human sociability and is the defining factor in human advancement. To cite to the behaviour of animals is plain silly, as to judge say the sociability of a chimp band by the social structure of finches. Pure, unadulterated idiocy.
Again, idiocy. Japan has been in decline for a good decade. One could make a cogent argument that most of its economic problems derive from the very rigidity that a homogenous socio-political structure has if not imposed, then encouraged. Never mind the open question of what will happen to the Japanese system as they need more and more workers to support an aging population. Immigration or … collapse and immiseration of at least the retired.
The US, on the other hand, has a flexible and vibrant social and political system which helps feed into the same for the economy. Diversity can be said to help drive innovation, bringing in new POVs, new ideas and sometimes new ways of doing things. It’s called competition in other circumstances, it is challenging and uncomfortable but in the end quite healthy for innovating to meet challenges. I second mssmith on NYC, and I would hazard the opinion that the diversity helps drive innovation.
This has been addressed, but the mix-breed thing is just silly. All humanity is mixed-breed. Those populations which became more closed off see higher incidences of genetic disorders, clearly unhealthy all things being equal.
Hybrid vigor you know.
If this fool is more than a casual believer in this nonesense, well I doubt your crusade will have much effect.
Well, by my reasoning, if the first argument is trashed, then the other two are bad news as well.
The deer-lion pairing is ludicrous when used as a comparison to “all men are not created equal.” We’re talking prey-predator here. That’s like saying “a man and a man-eating shark are not created equal.”
Go down to the cellular level. You can transfuse a black person’s blood into a white person (providing they are the same blood type) and no changes will occur…except you’ll probably save the white person’s life.
Some racists point to the “horse-donkey” hybrid resulting in a mule, which has none of the finer horse qualities. Yeah, but the mule is STERILE. Offspring from an Asian and a White can still breed.
Go down to the CHROMOSOME level. Twenty six pair, folks…no matter what color, what continent, what background, what parentage, what education, what-EVER.
Ask any vet which dogs are healthier: the Heinz-57 mutts or the pedigreed inbreeds.
Problem is, anyone who puts forth superiority arguments like the ones you gave, won’t listen to any reality except his or her own.
What is that saying about teaching a pig to sing? LOLOLOLOL
~VOW
That’s a very nice quote, but what does it have to do with befriending racist a-holes?
Not being friends with someone because they are a white supremacist is like “thought police”?
There’s a world of difference between simply disagreeing with someone, and having a friend who is just plain evil. You can disagree with someone and still recognize that they are a good person. But would you be friends with Charles Manson? This isn’t the same as being a Catholic and having a buddy who’s a Protestant. This guy is a white supremacist (you know, like those dudes who were goose-stepping around Germany about 50 years ago). I didn’t say arrest the guy - but what exactly is wrong with just not hanging out with people like that? Surely you’re not defending racists? “Yeah, there’s that minor thing where he thinks that whites are superior to all other races, but other than that, he’s a great guy - maybe we should cut him some slack.”:rolleyes:
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to avoid the company of a racist, especially if that racist hates your “kind”. Friendship–like any relationship–is based on commonalities in perspectives and opinions. I’m sorry, but I just couldn’t hang with a person who doesn’t believe in the basic humanity of everyone, regardless of race and gender.
However, there are many functional racists out there that blend in with polite society. It may be possible that um…yeah befriended this person before his unsavory opinions came to light and that despite his racism, he’s a swell guy.
Not at all. Suggesting that someone else must give up a friendship because the friend does not think the right things is ‘like “thought police”.’
Friends do lots of things together that are never impinged upon by the notion of rights or race: play or watch sports, watch and discuss movies, listen to and discuss music, travel, share food or money or sleeping space, help with cleaning or carpentry or auto repair, provide encouragement in times of despair, provide support in times of mourning.
The problem with declaring that people with bad attitudes are simply monsters to be shunned is that we then create the monsters in our own minds. We make the declaration that the fear or anger that has led them to accept that drivel has so totally corrupted them that they are now incapable of remaining human in any other way. To my mind, that is not too far from what they have done with the various groups that they choose to hate.
As noted, I would never let a racist go unchallenged when spouting nonsense in front of my kids. (I, personally, don’t know any of the virulent types that hang out in Idaho preparing for the “coming race war.” It is possible that their particular brand of hatred may be so extreme that I actually could not find a way to associate with them.) However, we have not yet determined that the OP’s friend is actually going around beating up people with the wrong appearance. We only know that he has been influenced in his ignorance and fear by some racist tripe. I can share meals and jobs and jokes with an extreme racist and find him a good person with a serious flaw. Those I have known have learned pretty early that they are at a disadvantage when they try to promote their ideas in my presence. I doubt that I have ever changed any of their minds, but by not shunning them, I have been present with them to disarm their comments when they spoke to others.
There are a lot of racists out there who would never consider a violent act based on their racial perceptions. If we isolate every one we find, the only people with whom they will be able to associate will be people more hateful than they are, themselves. I see no point to that. If Jesus could associate with thieves, tax collectors, and prostitutes, I think I can handle associating with the occasional white supremacist.
The odd thing is, the white folks most likely to embrace the theory of white supremacy are precisely the folks who do the most to undermine the theory.
I mean, it isn’t the Albert Einsteins and Niels Bohrs of the world who run around proclaiming that white people are smarter than blacks/Asians/whoever. It isn’t the William Faulkners and Claude Debussys who proclaim that “white culture” (whatever that means) is superior to all others.
On the contrary! The people who make such claims are invariably idiots, with no understanding of science and little appreciation of culture.
The odd thing is, “white” culture had little or no meaning until different European groups started coming to America. I mean, 300 years ago, white Englishmen viewed the equally pale Irish as scum; white Germans regarded the equally fair Jews as subhuman; white Northern Italians looked with scorn at almost-as-white Southern Italians (and to some extent, they still do!).
Not until Neapolitans AND Sicilians moved to America did they start to embrace each other as fellow Italians. And not until they came to America did Englishmen, Irishmen, Germans and Jews (along with Poles, Russians, Italians, Swedes, etc.) come to regard each other as part of some generic “white” race.
All in all, my Irish peasant ancestors had no more in common with my German neighbor’s ancestors than they had with Chinese, Indian or Mexican peasants.
tomndebb wrote:
… from which they obtained the Cloaking Device.
(Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)
Oh, please. The OP asked for advice, and I gave it. I didn’t say s/he “must” give up the friendship and more than you said s/he “must” continue it.
Your comparison is not apt. Surely you can see the difference between judging a person on the content of their character, and judging them on their race? Can you see the difference between these two statements?:
I do not wish to be friends with Joe because he has disturbing racist ideas.
and
I do not wish to be friends with Joe because he is a Jew.
Not the same thing at all.
Good points, Astorian, but I will quibble as is my habit.
True, true. Oh so pitifully true.
True, although there are those few outliers nowadays --it once was quite acceptable and reasonable to do so, thank God good science has destroyed that-- who unaccountably cling to this.
Take the racist science folks: Jensen, for example, is a clear racist but otherwise a good scientist outside of his obsession. (Rushton on the other hand is a fool and a bungler)
I have a hard time undestanding those people, but I suppose we all have blinders.
I am with you there (ex. the 1% who are either evil or loons).
Quite true, one of the most revealing things one can do is read early accounts by Portuguese and other Euro explorers (15th-16th centuries) in re say West Africa. Africans are barbarians becuase they are not Portuguese (etc.) not their skin color, no complexes about noting African states, no felt need to denigrate (besides in the same way they might denigrate the English barbarians etc.).
Well, other than religion…
Good points. Very good.
Certainly. And I have made no judgement of any person who is so offended by the latter statement that they cannot countenance a friendship with a person who could say it. I would never tell monstro or you that you had an obligation to befriend such a person. That is not how friendships occur.
I do note that many things can lead a person to those beliefs, chief among them fear and ignorance, with anger closely following. Challenging or denying or refuting their ill-founded beliefs, however, is different than claiming that they are worthless because of those beliefs.
Your initial statement began
and ended
You have made a judgement that the person who holds bad thoughts is “garbage” and have noted that they are unworthy to have as a friend. You have declared that a person who is, quite likely, fearful of the things in this world that he does not understand is not worthy of friendship.
You know nothing about the climate in which he was raised.
You have no idea whether he carries his philosophical beliefs of racial superiority over into daily life, trampling on the feelings and rights of minorities, or whether he simply carries an internal belief that he is superior while treating people he meets with civility.
You have no idea whether he has a good sense of humor, treats his family and friends with love, works hard, pays his taxes, obeys the laws, and tries to be a good citizen.
You know only that he believes that certain people are inherently inferior, and you have no idea how he interacts with them.
I do not claim that you must embrace such a person as a friend.
If such beliefs cause you personal discomfort, you will never be able to befriend such a person. That is perfectly understandable.
I do suggest describing such a person as “garbage” and making the statement “If you have friends like that, who needs enemies?” implies a judgement on other people’s friendships that ignore all the many variables of friendship that are not founded upon beliefs or philosophy.
Tom is plenty capable of defending himself, of course, but I trust he won’t mind if I make a few points in his defense.
My screen name comes from the New York neighborhood I grew up in, Astoria (Queens). TV viewers know it as Archie Bunker’s neighborhood. When I was a kid, it was a neighborhood of blue-collar white ethnics, mostly Irish and Italian. Later, it became a predominantly Greek area. Lately, when I visit, I gather it’s becoming heavily Middle Eastern.
My neighbors and the elders of my family were genuinely wonderul people in most regards. Their kindness and generosity were unmatched. There was NOTHING these people wouldn’t do for a friend or neighbor. Many of them regularly performed favors and as of kindness for me that I can never repay. I loved and still love many of them dearly.
That said, many of them held racist attitudes that “All in the Family” never came close to touching. I heard elderly relatives toss about racal epithets casually, on a regular basis. Some spouted off anti-Semitic diatribes and conspiracy theories that were shocking, in ther crudeness and stupidity. WHERE they learned this anti-semitism still baffles me; the worst offenders were all born and raised in Ireland, where, for all practical purposes, there AREN’T any Jews!
Let’s be clear here: NONE of these people ever burned a cross on a black family’s lawn. NONE ever assaulted a Jew, or even insulted one to his face. Their racism was limited to ugly words, usually behind closed doors, and oy among people assumed o sare the same prejudices.
Now, the big question for Blowero… do you expect me to disown my family, and denounce the people I grew up with? Do you expect me to discount all their genuinely wonderful qualities? Am I supposed to forget all they did to make my life better?
As Tom said, we have an obligation to shield our kids from racist talk. And if, say, an elderly uncle of mine started talking trash about the Jews controlling the media, or _____ (fill in your favorite racist diatribe) in my presence, or in the presence of kids, I’d make sure he clammed up. I wouldn’t sit still for it.
But I’m not going to ostracize everyone I care about who’s ever uttered a racist remark, however vile. Don’t tell me that genuinely good people aren’t capable of ugly words or ugly attitudes. I know from experience that isn’t true. And I don’t plan to shut those people out of my life.
Eh, all them athletes look alike to me. 
Well, no judgment other than that “thought police” crack, and your implication that such a person is no better than a hateful bigot. But who’s counting?
I guess you’re right. We should have held Hitler’s hand and said “There, there, Adolph. We know you are an innocent victim of circumstance, and you don’t really mean to be evil. Let us calmly and lovingly explain to you why your views are mistaken, and I’m sure you will come around.”
Since I already destroyed this thread by bringing up Hitler, I might as well point out that he was known to love him family very much. I would imagine he paid his taxes as well.
And I’m supposed to like him more if he is a hypocrite, being nice to people to their face while secretly loathing them?
Look, I don’t care if you help 100 old ladies across the street every day - if you are a white supremacist, you can kiss my you-know-what. Defend racists all you want - I’m sticking by what I said.
Ummm, encourage your friend to register here and start a discussion about his views. With luck, he will conduct himself as a gentleman, thus not raising the ire of administrators who give a very short leash to such threads. With even more luck, we will respond to him in a courteous but forthright manner until the points of debate compel him to change his mind. You never know, and it would be a beautiful thing for all to witness.
If you decide to do this, I would recommend putting Gaudere on alert. Perhaps then she can preempt some of the potential problems by moderating the thread closely. It is a great opportunity for us to carry out the mission of the SDMB.