PLEASE help me debunk white Supremecy

I need the help of the TM. I have been corresponding with a man who has become a friend. But he and I hold very different beliefs. He is a white supremesist. He just wrote me a long letter about why he believes what he does. Now I find myself in a pickle. Do I debate this man or not? I’ll mention a few of his points and if you have any insight or experience in this area, please enlighten me (cites would be great as well).

Arguement #1- All men are not created equal. Nature is his example of this. His quote “There exists no such thing as rights or privelages under natural law. The deer being stalked by the lion has no right to life. However, he may purchase life by obedience to nature-ordained instincts for vigilance and flight.”

Arguement #2- As a country becomes “multi-cultural”, it begins to deteriorate. His cite for this is, of course, the US and it’s lax immigration laws. Also, a country like Japan, which is still very steeped in tradition and nationalism.

and now for the rettoric on Jews…

Arguement #3- Judeo-Chrisianity is a “misnomer”. They are eons apart. Not until sometime after 1611 was the name “Jew” ever mentioned. Jews are not a pure bloodline but rather descendents of a “mix-breed”. The cite for this is Alfred Lilienthal’s book “What Price Israel” pages 215-216 “The twelve tribes started in Caanan about 35 centuries ago, and not only ten of them disappeared-- more than half of the remaining tribes never returned from their exile in Babylon.” Just as there is no such thing as a “Muslim race”, neither is there such a thing as a Jewish race.

There are more cites and points in the letter but these are some of the main ones. I have not looked up these cites for myself but I’m taking what he wrote me.

He is right about all men not being created equal. Some men are born stronger, smarter, better looking, taller, and so on. He is also correct about the deer and the lion. Humans, however are not deer and lion living in the wild. We live in a society with laws.

If your Nazi friend truly believed he was superior, he would not worry about the black and the Mexican and the Jew because he would simply advance further in life on his own merit.

Also ask him to go into any black neighborhood wearing a racial sign like Bruce Willis in Die Hard 3. See how much he likes the deer/lion analogy then.

And yet the US is the strongest nation, economicly, militarily and culturally in the history of the world. Japan’s economy, meanwhile, is on the verge of collapse.

New York City is one (if not the) greatest city in the world and it also happens to be the most diverse.

The problem is your friends circular logic. It goes a little something like this: “A homogenious culture is best so as a culture begins to diversify it begins to deteriorate. America is culturally diverse so it is a deteriorating culture.”

I fail to see the relevance of “blood-lines” and racial purity. I happen to be a mix of Italian, Irish and some Eastern European country I can’t remember the name of and Jewish (which can be argued is a religeon, not a race) and yet i am probably more successful than your Klansman friend will ever be. Of course, I have the Jewish conspiracy to help me, but the “deer has no right to life when the lion is stalking him”, right?

Superior people do not need to exist in a homogenious society (“Did he’all gist call me a homo?”). They can can interact with people of all races and cultures as equals. I have to wonder why you would be friends with such an ignorent person. I also wonder what this person has achieved in life to make him believe he is superior to all other races.

The word “Jew” appears several times in the Bible (OT), albeit mainly in the later books (before that the terms most often used were “Israelite” or the indiviual tribes, including Judah). Methinks your “friend” is trying to say that it did not appear in English before the KJV, which says more about his coulture than about the Jews.

We prefer “Hybrid”. And we’re damn proud of it.

If you can get him to read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond, you’d get some way to using science and logical thinking about natural selection. to alter his thinking. Highly recommended anyway. :slight_smile:

There’s a lot of argument I’ve heard recently (no cite, alas) that the anti-immigration policies of Japan are what are causing its economy to crumble. London, New York and Paris are the most multiracial and multicultural cities I’ve ever been to, and nobody could claim their economies were in trouble.

Regarding the racial purity thing (I just can’t get my head around why anyone would give a shit about this) - tell him there’s no such thing as the white race either. Does he consider himself of WASP stock? If he has English ancestors, then he’d likely be a mix of Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Picts, Celts, Danes and Normans.

Watch “American History X”.

Tell him his analogy is utterly flawed. Lions and deers are different species. Humans aren’t. Within the lion species, there are differences between individuals, with some more adapted to succeed and reproduce than others. But those differences are not related to whether the lion has a golden pelt or something more tawny.
Hell, if he really believes that “natural law” argument, ask him to explain why there are so many more non-whites than whites. If whites were superior, they would have more success in reproducing and passing on their genes.

Tell him he is 15 years behind the times. Mono-cultural and -race Japan has been suffering from deflation, repeated recessions, and economic decline since around 1990. The “success” of Japan in the 1980’s appears in retrospect to have been largely the result of a land-price bubble in the 80s.
Ironically, Japan’s ongoing inability to restructure their economy and overcome the effects of the deflation of the bubble is at least partially due to Japanese traditions. The Japanese culture greatly values harmony and consensus, and the fixes needed will cause short-term but severe economic disruption. Japan cannot reach a consensus on the need for these fixes, so the problems continue.

Wouldn’t that be a reason for a white supremist to not dislike the Jews? They aren’t a “race” - so why would they be considered to have inferior blood?


Couple more questions. So does being “Jewish” mean you are part of a race or a religion? I always thought that jews were both a race and a religion. What is the history? Also, I don’t understand how white supremesists embrace “Chrisitianity” when they reject Jesus. Doesn’t make sense. Thanks for the good responses so far!

A better description of Judaism is that it is both a religion and a “tribe.” Tribal members do not necessarily share the same DNA.


The U.S. of A. has been a mongrel nation for most of its history. When the Irish began to immigrate in serious numbers in the mid-19th century, they were regarded by many, if not most, as a different race.
Same deal, in spades, when large numbers of Southern and Eastern Europeans immigrated in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (Italians, Greeks, Poles, Hungarians, etc.).

In the Vietnam and post-Vietnam era, we had a major wave of immigration from Southeast Asia. And throughout the 20th century (and into the 21st), we’ve got a steadily increasing wave of immigration from Mexico and points south.

Each of these groups has immigrated, intermingled, intermarried, assimilated, and strengthened our nation. (That process is obviously still in progress for Southeast Asian and recent Hispanic immigrant groups, but it’s just as clearly well underway.) And the USA in 2002 is the world’s dominant economic, cultural, military, etc. force.

If ‘mongrelization’, as the supremacists sometimes call it, has weakened the U.S., it’s hard to imagine where it (as a descendant of Eastern European Jews, I wouldn’t be able to say ‘we’) would be if it had stayed ‘pure’. Probly would have taken over the rest of the world and the Solar System, and would be en route to taking over nearby star systems. :rolleyes:

White supremacists insist that Jews are a separate, distinct race
who are inherently evil and cunning and are to blame for just about anything.

Those who claim to be Christian have some bullshit argument to explain that Jesus wasnt a Jew.

While my movie knowledge is quite prolific, I haven’t seen this film yet. Could you maybe give me an explanation that does not require me sitting through a 2 hour movie?

I am assuming this is a person who you have been friends with growing up or something? And now over the years he has become a white supremacist. People do grow apart, you know. Just because you are friends in grade school does not mean you have to be friends for life. Friendship is about sharing the same ideals and values, not just a misguided sense of loyalty. How would you maintain this friendship if you suddenly started dating a black or Jewish woman? Would your “friend” support such a relationship or would you be unable to have the them in the same room?

#1 First, he is misusing the meaning of the words. The concept is not that humanity is cranked out with machine-like precision, equal in every detail, but that all people are created with equal rights before the law. Thomas Jefferson never said that no person was smarter, swifter, stronger, or prettier than another person. In one specific document, he noted that the equality before the law is (or should be) inherent in every person from birth.
Jefferson was not claiming that there were no differences between individuals, but that there were no valid differences by birth such as were granted in Europe to royalty and nobility.
To turn that into a declaration of the equality of features among individuals is to betray a complete ignorance of the statement and how and why it was made.

(Implied in your correspondent’s ignorance is the fact that he would then try to extrapolate his misunderstanding of the equality of rights before the law into a claim that different populations of humanity might be better or less well-equipped to succeed in the world. That issue is not even addressed in the Declaration of Independence.)

#2 An absurd display of a genuine ignorance of history.
The Egyptians were a multi-ethnic civilization from the beginning and flourished for over 2,000 years. The Byzantine Empire was multi-ethnic and survived for 800 years (thriving for at least 400 of them). China, despite ignorant Western views that Chinese are “all the same” is a multi-ethnic society that has survived and thrived (with rising or falling periods, of course) for over 2,000 years.

The usual victim of this “racial purity” nonsense is Imperial Rome. However, Rome did not fall because it was simply multi-ethnic, it fell under the pressures of repeated violent invasions (and the Roman tradition carried on quite nicely in the multi-ethnic Eastern Empire where the violent invasions were more successfully held off).

#3 ::: sigh ::: The word Jew originated in English when the consonantal “D” dropped out of the word (probably influenced by the French Juif, but the group of people who are known by the word Jude in German are the same people who were called Joudaios in Greek. The Greek and German variants of the word are actually pronounced very closely. This argument is simply stupid. It is ignornace preying on ignorance.

As to the “racial purity” nonsense–only the “Aryan” supremecists even care about such an idiotic notion. Jews look upon themselves as the people who follow the laws of Moses, including converts and people who “marry into” the faith. It would be interesting to find one of these haters who can point to a Jewish claim of racial purity.

Judaeo-Christian is a bit more problematic (and many Jews will argue against a “Judaeo-Christian” tradition, considering how bad a heresy Christianity is to the Jewish faith and how horribly we heretics have treated the original believers). However, both groups accept as God’s Word the writings found in what Jews call the Tanakh and and Christians call the Old Testament. Both groups see that God as a loving God who created the world and calls humanity to act justly. Certainly, while Jews might wish to distance themselves from the people who followed Jesus, no Christian cam legitimately separate from the tradition (however re-interpreted) that originated with the Jews.

The “Jewish Race” is the older use of the word “race” that preceded the eighteenth century notions of categorizing people. It originally meant those people who “descended” either actually or in legend from a common acestor. Thus, the Romans were the “race” of Romulus; the Irish were the “Milesian race” descended from Milesius; the “Jewish race” descended from Abraham. (Note, that while looking to Romulus as their ancestor, the Romans were quite aware that other tribes had been brought into their group; every Jewish scholar realized that Abram/Abraham started with an already coherent tribe that included his cousins and servants.)

It was only after the early ethnologists “borrowed” the word race to describe the groups into which they would divide the world that we got caught up in the confusion of some ethnically “pure” Jewish race–that was not the meaning of the word when it was first used and is a mistaken application of the word, now.

OK movie… Great actor (Edward Norton). Ed plays a white supremecist who murders two African Americans. He goes to jail, gets the crap kicked out of him (including rape), is befriended by a black inmate, and ends up changing his tune. He’s released from prison and tries to save his little brother from the same life.

I won’t go into details of my friendship with this guy. But I will say that I befriended him knowing more or less his beliefs. I absolutely disagree with his views but I am still choosing to be his friend. He knows where I stand and is interested enough to ask my opinion. To me, this shows that he can be reached. I know from experience that people that hold these views are often the product of bad childhoods. Doesn’t excuse it at all, but shows me that what is learned can be unlearned. Maybe it’s a waste of time but I think he deserves a chance.

Ever hear of T.J Leyden? He’s sort of a real life character from “American History X”.

He lectures on hate groups and speaks personally of why he joined, and what steps occured that caused his mind to change.

He even has a email address on this page…(scroll down to “Members of the Task Force”).

Maybe that info can help.

Huge thanks to you cuate! This is exactly the kind of info I’m looking for!

I have to wonder…does your friend claim to be a Christian? If he does, tell him to read the biblical stories about the good Samaritian, the prostitute by the well, and the unfaithful wife. In every case, Jesus (who was NOT white, make sure he understands that as well) preached acceptance of everyone. Also, the only white people I know of in the Bible are the Romans, and they killed Jesus.

BTW, American History X is a FANTASTIC movie. Sure stirred my soul. I highly recommend it to everyone, even those without white supremacist friends.

**ummm… yeahh… ** let me first say that I find it highly admirable to take the stance you have in regards to this friend of yours. OTOH I should also warn you that you’re getting into something a little hairy. White Supremacy and Nazism is very much more than an opinion, it’s a life style and a belief system that verges on a cult. To change someone’s direction who has chosen this road often enough requires more than arguing. They need to get away from the source, from the enclosure of all the others that support the same beliefs. Like in any cult that’s hard and often a violent experience that sometimes won’t happen without a catalyzing event and/or trauma like the one Ed Norton’s character goes through in prison in ‘History X’. But hey you know that, you’ve seen the film. :wink:

I’ve had quite a bit to do with the Neo-Nazis and other ethnic based gangs in real life and I can tell you that one of the most remarkable things about that film is how very, very close to reality it is. It’s hard work to get someone away from there and don’t be surprised if it doesn’t happen. And, please watch out for yourself – it’s a damned violent and volatile culture your friend is involved with.

Arguing won’t help, but you’ll need to know were you stand and when your friend is ready to talk you should have the facts handy. For starters there is no evidence that there is such a thing as ‘race’ biologically and genetically speaking at all, but there is a lot of evidence to the contrary (but that’s the higher school – your friend won’t swallow that for quite a while). If you on the other hand want to learn more and be ready there are a number of members here on SDMB that have posted many a solid argument and good information on the issue. Rather than point you at a specific thread I would suggest you browse through the threads in GD and read those that deal with race and/or ethnicity and/or fascism (Le Pen has been pretty frequent lately) and/or immigration. There have been a good number of those recently. Not only will it give you information; it’ll show a little how the argumentation usually goes. There is some stuff in the BBQ Pit as well if you feel you can stomach it, but it’s rather thick with expletive and shows more of the way you shouldn’t argue someone out of racism than the ‘how’ you’re looking for (yes Sir, I just threw that first stone although I have sinned!).

BTW I owe you thanks, your thread on how Americans are viewed and received in Europe got me posting and reading here, and although it has been swallowing a little too much of my time lately, I like the SDMB.



George W. Bush.

Pee-Wee Herman.

Dan Quayle.

Darryl Strawberry

The defense rests. :smiley:

Actually, I owe you some thanks. Your posts in that discussion greatly enlightened me and I’m very much appreicative of them.

You’re right. This is a somewhat dangerous game I am playing. But as you will recall from the “how Americans are viewed in Europe” OP, I am a little bit of a risk taker (moving to Paris for full time missions). I have a real heart for people and I want to help. It may cost me in the future but I am a big believer in the “everything happens for a reason” theology.


Well, the author obviously never read the The Merchant of Venice (written in the late 1590s) where the word “Jew” appears among the Dramatis Personae on the first page.

Or Chaucer, where Jews are described as having killed Hugh of LIncoln in the Prioress’ Tale about five hundered years before Shakespeare?

Or John Chrystostom, who wrote his homilies against about seven hundred years before Chaucer.

IOW, the author doesn’t know his basic facts.

Zev Steinhardt