Please help me see that marriage isn't a total crock.

In My Humble Opinion
21

I think this is true. It has, at least, been important in my marriage. We try never to be deliberately nasty, which looks obvious, but after the cat has just thrown up because he overfed them and it’s 3 a.m. and you just bruised your foot because the recycling wasn’t put out again, which is supposed to be his job… it can be rough. Substitute “her” to flip it around.

This reminds me of a passage in a Kathleen Norris book about living in a monastic community. I can’t find the passage offhand, but the gist is thst living in committed community with others, if done with love, tends to work like a rock tumbler- you end up good and polished, but the friction isn’t necessarily comfortable.

I’ve only been married for three and a half years, but I think some of our rough edges have already been worn off. Lots of edges still to go, but it’s more than worth it.
In brief response to Chefguy, sorry for being touchy-feely again.

22

I think I was in your position when I was around your age. My parents split up after 20 years. In our little town, they were trendsetters. Their breakup sent shock waves through their social circle, and inside of a year, the four couples they were closest to, broke up. I saw crappy, ugly relationships all over the place. Divorce seems to run in my family. Two of my uncles, some extended relatives, everybody seemed unable to stay married. My best friends lost their relationships and marriages. It got so I was afraid of even trying, if this was what my life was going to be like. I didn’t want any of that anguish. So, I was alone for a long time, watching and learning.

Then I found my wife, and we have also just passed eight years of marriage, and we knew each other for two years before that. We have never had a fight or an argument. No slammed doors, no tears, no accusations, no jealousy. Her parents have a kind of a sick relationship, and she had major doubts about relationships in general, too. Well, that’s a good sign for my wife. Independent of each other, we were able to draw up a mental category of ways we would not treat another person if we were married to them. And that’s what we do.

I liked her so much that I left my country to come here and be married to her. I want her to always love me, and I also want her to like me, because she’s a great friend. I don’t treat her in ways that don’t facilitate that continuing. So if you approach it in such a way that you consciously don’t mess up your good thing, you can have a very good thing, indeed. With the right person, it isn’t hard to be happy, if you both are in agreement about the major issues of your lives. We talked about it all before we got married. That was important.

I can see where you might get a fear of marriage by watching other people, and come to view it as a ball and chain that leads only to ugliness and misery. But it doesn’t have to be like that, and it will never be, if you don’t want it to.

23

I vote for “total crock” – I had the whole dysfunctional family thing as a kid (here is a thread called Family Rage I did about it), but my parents NEVER separated, and I believe everyone would have been much happier if they had. I am now 47, never been married.

But I believe there are a couple of useful things about marriage. I think there are some tax benefits, but you should talk to a real accountant about that, and IA one. And I think there’s probably a psychological benefit for any children that are born or adopted or fertilized or spawned or whatever.

Of course, my own experience belies the latter. So my advice is, if you want children, and really believe a marriage has long term potential, do it. But if it ends up getting poisonous, consider that splitting up might be the lesser of two evils rather than bringing kids up in a hate filled home.

24

Of course, if we’re going to drop the “touchy-feely crap” we should probably not replace it with errors of fact or implication.

While the number of marriages that have failed have approached 50% on a few occasions (several years ago), the number of married persons in failing marriages has never approached 50%. Every person who marries multiple times rachets up the percent of failed marriages while doing nothing to increase the number of persons in a failed marriage. (I figure Mickey Rooney and Liz Taylor have probably skewed the numbers from the country just by themselves.) Deb had an associate who came from a cultural background in which it was simply not done to live together outside marriage. On the other hand, the woman was basically not interested in a serious life-time commitment. Thus, in the nine years we knew her, she was married three times (and, I believe, may have been married previously and subsequently). I have no criticism of her lifestyle (although I am not interested in following it), but her experience pretty thoroughly tilts the “percent of marriages” that fail over to the wrong side of the ledger.

This is not to say that there is no risk in marriage, but it is to note that all the “touchy-feely crap” is actually a presentation of strategies that may reduce the risk of a troubled marriage or eventual divorce.

25

I’m a fairly abrupt and direct person. It doesn’t come across very well, but I’m sorta working on it, but not really. I’m assuming you were being sarcastic.

If the incidents you’ve described are what you consider “rough”, you’re leading a cushy life indeed. Those would be less than minor irritants to me, since I understand the fallibility of the human animal. It merits a shrug at best.

26

No arguments, and I didn’t say that it’s a bad thing. Quoting platitudes to someone though, is to gloss over the realities of living together. While my hipshot estimate of 50% may be pessimistic, the actual numbers overwhelmingly demonstrate the lack of thought that many put into the whole proposition.

27

It was the essential ingredient that allowed us to adopt. Living without the peice of paper is well and good - until the legal world of “sorry you need to be married” steps in and you start to understand why same sex couples want the legal rights of marriage.

28

I remember a minister telling me, “The marriage you start out with is not the marriage you end up with.” Nobody could successfully have predicted the current condition of their life thirty years ago. And unless you seek out and marry the world’s most boring person, you won’t be able to predict where both you and your spouse will be ten, twenty, thirty, forty, and fifty years down the road. Successful couples are willing to acknowledge and accept changes in each other. Big changes. Maybe one partner starts out wanting only one child, then changes their mind and decides they want four or five. Or someone gets bored of living in Kentucky and wants to move to Hawaii. Or they grow tired of being an office drone and decide to start their own business. A successful couple has to view marriage as an adventure rather than a contract.

Here’s another tip: couples should vacation together. Every year. Take long and relaxing vacations, not just two-day road trips.

29

I am always dismayed when I see people disparaging the entire institution of marriage just because their parents had a bad one, or they had a bad one, or whatever. Yes, there are bad marriages, and bad parents, and bad therapists, and bad Christians. Doesn’t mean that no one should ever get married, or have kids, or see a counselor, or go to church.

My marriage, for one, is NOT a total crock, and I’ll thank you (generic you) not to call it one just because you’ve witnessed someone else’s ugly relationship. That’s a mighty broad brush.

For the record, Mr. S’s parents had a mighty rotten marriage (they’re both dead), and so do mine (still together, though I wish to hell they weren’t). We both just decided that we would NOT be like that. We are courteous and kind to each other. We express our appreciation. We pick our battles and accept each other’s flaws. We fight fair; we don’t bring up past resolved issues, and our main goal is compromise, not having a “winner” and a “loser.” We depend on and support each other. We consider our marriage the most important thing we have, and we nurture and protect it.

30

Nope, not really being sarcastic.
Oddly, we find it slightly easier to deal with big things- illness, unemployment, family problems- as a team, without much tension. It’s the small things that build gradually into larger and more irrational irritations, and can become fuse-points, although we’ve gotten pretty good at not letting them build. Most of the time, anyway.

Shrug maybe my life is exceptionally cushy.
My parents’ marriage is much less happy than my own, and I partially attribute it to the inability to be courteous and not bully each other.

31

That’s a great story Chotii. Whenever I’m bickering with my Caveman and can’t figure out why, I often think of it as “rubbing off the sharp pointy bits”

And Cockatiel you can do a search of my posting history to see that I’m far from ultra-religious, but one of my favorite passages in the bible is from Ecclesiastes 4:

32

Scarlett, I’m sorry if this thread has insulted you. I really didn’t mean to start a whole “marriage is completely pointless, shouldn’t ever happen in the first place, blah blah blah” type thing. I said that I’m aware that there are successful marriages out there; I just haven’t seen too many for myself.

Oh and odd update: My dad apparently is staying for now. I’m not really sure what’s going to happen, but please don’t let this change of events prevent anyone else from posting. Even if my dad does decide to stay permantly, I’m sure they are going to still have a pretty messed up relationship and my doubts about marriage aren’t going to dissapate too soon. Hopefully sooner that later, though.

33

This is a gem. I’m stealing it for future use.

My own experience ( married 13 years, together 18 years) is that the Big Issues
( Death, Illness, Major Catastrophic Situations. We went through more stuff before we were married than some couples who have been married 25-30 years.) We like a freakin’ pit crew on the Indy 500. We each have our jobs to do and perform them flawlessly.

It is the Day to Day mundania that makes both of us shake our heads, mutter under our breath.

It isn’t the Big Issues that drive couples apart, it’s the little shit that does.

Death and Illness are so much easier to handle than, say, the daily reminder that your wonderful spouse could not find the dishwasher and put his dirty dishes in it , ( despite the fact he installed it) . You come to realize that it isn’t that your spouse isn’t capable or lazy, it is the fact that there is some kind of Spousal Deflector Sheild around said appliance.
Oh, and their will never be enough money.

34

Not insulted at all, just dismayed, as I said. My first thought on reading the OP was along the lines of, “Oh geez, not another one . . .”

There are good marriages and bad marriages. You get out of it what you put into it, same as anything else in life. Some people are badly matched and should never have gotten married in the first place. My parents are an example of that and possibly yours too. On the other hand, you have the people who are well matched and last for fifty years and die in each other’s arms.

I had a rotten weekend because of a marriage gone wrong. Not mine, but friends of ours who’ve been married 20 years. He decided he didn’t love his wife anymore and went sneaking around with another woman. I got the news of their separation on Sunday (knocked me on my ass, let me tell you) and the “Well, it’s definitely over” message late last night. These were our oldest married friends. They moved a thousand miles away and we made sure to visit them every few years, and they got together with us when they came back to visit family. We thought their marriage was as strong as ours (and so did the wife, as she wrote this weekend). And as I wrote to her, I would never have dreamed this in a thousand years. I still feel sick and keep thinking that this can’t be true, that I’ll wake up and it will go away. Oh, and there are two kids.

People change and you never know what the future holds. But we can’t sit in a corner cowering our whole lives because we’re afraid of something bad happening. Mr. S had withdrawn himself from the dating pool after one too many failures, one too many rejections. Didn’t think Ms. Right existed. A few months later I showed up and proved him wrong. Because of my parents’ marriage, I had bad ideas about it too – thought men were all scuzzballs like my dad, and because of other hard knocks I thought I’d have to “stifle” myself in any relationship I might manage to cobble together. But instead I found a man who loves me because of all my quirks, not in spite of them (and the same is true for him and his quirks). And every day (and especially after this weekend) I am actively and extremely grateful for that.

I think selfishness kills a lot of marriages. Some people get married and think they can just go on doing their own thing, oblivious to the fact that their actions affect another person now. You can’t get married and keep horndogging every weekend to prove what a big stud you are. You can’t just do whatever you feel like around the house because now it’s someone else’s house too. You need to involve someone else in your decisions now. If you’re not willing to give up a little to accommodate someone else’s needs and wants, then eventually someone is going to be unhappy.

35

I wanted to quote this for emphasis because it’s great. One of the big misconceptions that people have about marriage, in my experience, is that happily married couples never fight and fighting is a sign of a failed/failing marriage. That’s not true at all. The key is fighting constructively: using every fight as an opportunity to learn and improve, both the relationship and yourself as an individual.

36

There are plenty of examples of successful relationships in which the parties have not dated a lot of people and/or have married young and there are plenty of examples of very unsuccessful relationships in which the parties have followed your advice. There are no guarantees. You just have to keep your eyes and ears open, be willing to make yourself vulnerable, and be accepting.

37

That’s pretty much how I feel. Hubby and I will be celebrating 18 years of marriage this November (been together for 22 years). I look at his two best friends, one of whom is divorced, and one of whom would be if he weren’t so opposed to divorce from a religious angle. I look at my family, and the good and bad marriages in it. I look at my friends, and the good and bad marriages there. Again and again, the things consistently missing in the bad marriages are communication and courtesy. I think if you marry for “love” (which is sometimes only really strong lust), and never talk about things, the first time that wave of love ebbs (and it will), you’re going to think it’s over. Maybe it will be.

More important than marrying someone you love, I think, is marrying someone you like. Yes, love is important, but those romantic love type feelings really do ebb and flow. When the tide is out, living with the person is much easier if you still like them. Plus, if you’re married to someone you like, and who likes you, you’re much more likely to treat each other with respect and courtesy.

Of course, I also believe that some people just weren’t cut out for marriage, the same way some people just aren’t cut out for parenthood, or anything else, for that matter. There is no One Size Fits All answer. We all just have to try and find our own way.

38

Speaking to the OP, while I have not been married that long, I did see my parents get divorced right before I went to high school. My parents are divorced, though they are still amicable and in touch. Friends even though they are complete polar opposites.

I’m now happily married 9 years, together for 11. We married a little later in life at 37.

I guess my Wife and I have had one or two arguments. Mostly from a misunderstanding. We stand by each other at all times, and I know that she will always be there for me, and I her.

One thing I would recommend, is that if you are upset, think before you speak. I guess that goes for any aspect of life.

It is likely, that for any thing that gets under your skin, your SO also has one. No one is perfect.

A ‘honey, this kind of bugs me’, goes a lot further than ‘why did you do that’. Words can hurt. You must be careful how you use them.

I donno. My brother at 50 is marrying someone he met on the net a year ago. She lives in another state. They have spent very little real time together. Basically, a couple of long weekends.

And my brother has had a long history of dating somewhat questionable women (I’m being as nice as I can). The last six, including 3 that moved in with him, turned out to be disasters. To the point where he took the guns he owned and stored them with my Father. Didn’t feel safe.

I’m trying to be optimistic for him and his new wife, but I just don’t know.

For you Cockatiel hang in there. I know that sounds trite, but you are young. These things happen. I have nothing but hope for my Brother and his new Wife. You can have hope that your Mom and Dad will be happier apart, and that you will still have a family. Maybe, in a few years a stronger family.

39

When my aunt and uncle were celebrating their 25th anniversary, their kids said they were going to send them on a cruise for being happily married for 25 years. My uncle told them, “Wait until we’ve had 25 years of being happily married. I think that we’re maybe up to 10.”
My wife and I will have been married 17 years this November. It’s tough work, especially in the beginning. Before you make the commitment to each other you have to talk about hopes, dreams, plans. Would both of you work if kids come along or, if one stays home, who would it be? How many kids? Would you consider adopting? Public or private school? Apartment, townhouse, condo, house? City, ‘burbs, rural? Whose religion (if either) would you follow or raise the kids in? Etc.
Over the years we’ve had ups and downs. Lay-offs, money problems, multiple miscarriages, fertility problems, hospitalizations, adoption, home construction, moving headaches, annoying parents (both sides), sexual abuse (a neighbor’s kid touched our daughter), and so on. Through all of the problems and successes, we cling to each other. I sometimes compare us to a couple of drunks staggering down the street, each leaning on the other to stay upright. If the other one isn’t there, we both fall over.
What has made it work for us when I see it fail for my sister (two failed marriages), my cousin (3) or my friend (5) is that my wife and I were friends before we got married and stayed friends after. We can talk about any subject at any time. I will listen to her and respect her opinion and vice versa.
I feel that the people who say that marriage is just a legal form of living together, neglect one important aspect: marriage is a commitment, legally binding and, if you believe in it, sanctified. You are making a promise to stay together and share in the good and bad. You desire to make a life together. I think that it is too easy for people to move in together, discover things are tough, they don’t want to compromise and then move apart. I put up with finding her bra under the coffee table, she tolerates my snoring (I’m seeing a doctor about it, though). I learned to deal with her using the bathroom with the door open, she puts up with my sloppiness. We work out our differences. We have fought, we have argued, we’ve screamed and yelled. But we can’t think of any place we would rather be or anyone we would rather be with than each other.

40

Absolutely. I think a lot of people go into marriage much too frivolously (I think that’s what you’re talking about, ChefGuy), wake up a couple of months later, and realize that they didn’t think it through at all. Sometimes when you don’t particularly love each other, you just let the commitment you made to each other carry you forward together, if you went into it with your eyes open and for the right reasons.

This is a great discussion, Cockatiel (sorry for the reason for it, though). I’m a firm believer that half the solution to problems is acknowledging that there is a problem - in talking and thinking about what you want in your own relationships, I think you’ll be ahead of the game. Nobody has to follow in their parents’ footsteps - you can make any kind of life for yourself that you decide to. If you decide you want a happy, fulfilling relationship and marriage, don’t settle for less, and be prepared to work for it; happy marriages don’t just happen to lucky people.