Pocket Knife in NJ: is this legal to own? Carry?

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=Jake]
I carry one of one of these around my house
This looks like a common construction Utility Knife to me. You can’t hang drywall without 'em. Please don’t tell me they’re going to outlaw THESE! :smack:
[/QUOTE]

Technically, it’s already illegal in OSHA-controlled worksites. At least that’s what the plant safety compliance officer told me. Our plant switched from the universal utility knife, with the standard blades, to a model that only stays open as long as the thumb button is held, with rounded ends on the blade. :smack: The tool crib stopped carrying the “unsafe” knives and blades, but most of us continued to carry and use the “outlawed” knives.

22

[QUOTE=Loach]
Which book?
[/QUOTE]

A Deeper Blue

Book #5 in the “Ghost” series.

23

[QUOTE=Loach]
Carrying a concealed weapon for protection is not a lawful purpose.
[/QUOTE]

Self-defense is illegal in New Jersey? I don’t think I’ll be passing through there…

24

[QUOTE=snailboy]
Self-defense is illegal in New Jersey? I don’t think I’ll be passing through there…
[/QUOTE]

No actual self defense is a, well, defense that is valid in a court of law (as long as you can convince the cops, the prosecutor, a jury or grand jury that it was in fact self defense and not an aggravated assault). Carrying around a weapon because you think you just might have to stick someone is not. Sorry if I did state it clear enough.

Damn, just picked up Kildar. I thought I missed some. Looks like I have to go shopping.

25

[QUOTE=Loach]
No actual self defense is a, well, defense that is valid in a court of law (as long as you can convince the cops, the prosecutor, a jury or grand jury that it was in fact self defense and not an aggravated assault). Carrying around a weapon because you think you just might have to stick someone is not. Sorry if I did state it clear enough.
[/QUOTE]

But you said it’s illegal to carry a knife for unlawful purposes. Self-defense is lawful. You can carry a pistol around for self-defense here (if you have a permit). I don’t understand what you meant with the original statement. What more lawful purpose could you have?

26

[QUOTE=Loach]
Damn, just picked up Kildar. I thought I missed some. Looks like I have to go shopping.
[/QUOTE]

So far, the series goes: **Ghost, Kildar, Choosers of the Slain, Unto The Breach ** and A Deeper Blue. I’d rate them 6, 9, 8, 9, 8.

27

[QUOTE=snailboy]
But you said it’s illegal to carry a knife for unlawful purposes. Self-defense is lawful. You can carry a pistol around for self-defense here (if you have a permit). I don’t understand what you meant with the original statement. What more lawful purpose could you have?
[/QUOTE]

Carrying a knife in order to stab someone is illegal. Stabbing someone is illegal. After the fact you may be able to prove that it was self defense. In New Jersey it is illegal to carry a knife just in case someone might need to be stabbed. It is illegal to carry a gun (it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit) just in case someone might need to be shot. It is illegal to carry a katana just in case you get attacked by ninjas.

28

[QUOTE=Loach]
<snip>
Damn, just picked up Kildar. I thought I missed some. Looks like I have to go shopping.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t do much reading, so this is the first time I’ve been able to comment on a book somebody mentioned on the SDMB! I just finished Kildar myself. About to start Choosers of the Slain. :smiley: Pretty good shit, I’d say.

29

[QUOTE=Loach]
Carrying a knife in order to stab someone is illegal.
[/quote]

False. You are allowed to carry a knife and the only reasons one can be found in violation of the law is that the knife is of an illegal type, or if it is determined it is being carried for an illegal purpose. Stabbing someone in justified self-defense is legal.

[QUOTE=Loach]
Stabbing someone is illegal.
[/quote]

False. There are many scenarios where stabbing someone is perfectly legal.

[QUOTE=Loach]
In New Jersey it is illegal to carry a knife just in case someone might need to be stabbed.
[/quote]

False. If youare carrying a knife for self defense, you have not broken any laws.

[QUOTE=Loach]
It is illegal to carry a gun (it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit) just in case someone might need to be shot.
[/QUOTE]

False. Self defense and defense of others is pretty much the only reason you will be granted a permit to carry in NJ.

30

[QUOTE=Campo]
False. You are allowed to carry a knife and the only reasons one can be found in violation of the law is that the knife is of an illegal type, or if it is determined it is being carried for an illegal purpose. Stabbing someone in justified self-defense is legal.
False. There are many scenarios where stabbing someone is perfectly legal.

False. If youare carrying a knife for self defense, you have not broken any laws.

False. Self defense and defense of others is pretty much the only reason you will be granted a permit to carry in NJ.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry no. For one thing try getting a carry permit with the only justification being self defense. Denied. In fact even bonded armed guards will usually only be granted a permit to carry at work and no where else. It is very unlikely that a civilian will be granted a concealed carry permit. There have to be extraordinary circumstances. I personally know no one who has one. (other than retired cops)

Carrying a leatherman or Gerber multitool won’t get you arrested even if you’re carrying them just for the blade. No one would look twice at you. If you are carrying a concealed hunting knife without a reason except “its for self defense” you are getting arrested. Of course there has to be a reason why it was found on you in the first place. Maybe you can get a judge to buy your justification and you might win the case but you are getting arrested. Hasn’t come up often but I haven’t lost one yet. Think whatever you want. Don’t bother me.

2C:39-5. Unlawful Possession of Weapons… d. Other weapons.
Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other
weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for
such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime of
the fourth degree.

Just saying you need your weapon to defend yourself in just general terms is not a manifestly appropriate use. You have to have more. Sorry.

31

[QUOTE=silenus]
So far, the series goes: **Ghost, Kildar, Choosers of the Slain, Unto The Breach ** and A Deeper Blue. I’d rate them 6, 9, 8, 9, 8.
[/QUOTE]

Ok I thought I missed some between Ghost and Kildar.

32

I also disagree with Loach’s analysis. The statute defines switchblade as a knife with a “blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife.” To open this knife, you apply pressure to the blade of the knife. After you begin to open it, it flips into place. At no point is pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle.

33

[QUOTE=Loach]
Sorry no. For one thing try getting a carry permit with the only justification being self defense. Denied.
[/quote]

I never said that anyone wanting to carry for self defense reasons could get a permit to carry. I said that those that are granted permission are done so for pretty much only defense reasons.

[QUOTE=Loach]
In fact even bonded armed guards will usually only be granted a permit to carry at work and no where else.
[/quote]

Proving my point. Of course you can think of other reasons an armed guard would be packing, but you get my point.

[QUOTE=Loach]
It is very unlikely that a civilian will be granted a concealed carry permit. There have to be extraordinary circumstances. I personally know no one who has one. (other than retired cops)
[/quote]

Straw man argument. You are getting off the topic and I said nothing about it being easy to get a permit to carry in NJ.

[QUOTE=Loach]
If you are carrying a concealed hunting knife without a reason except “its for self defense” you are getting arrested.
[/quote]

Bullshit! If the knife is not a gravity knife, etc., you’re reason for carrying being self-defense is just as good as your reason being “I use it to fix my lawnmower”.

[QUOTE=Loach]
Of course there has to be a reason why it was found on you in the first place. Maybe you can get a judge to buy your justification and you might win the case but you are getting arrested.
[/quote]

Getting arrested for what? Saying that you carry a knife for self defense, or getting arrested because the knife is not of the legal type?

[QUOTE=Loach]
2C:39-5. Unlawful Possession of Weapons… d. Other weapons.
Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other
weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for
such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime of
the fourth degree.

Just saying you need your weapon to defend yourself in just general terms is not a manifestly appropriate use. You have to have more. Sorry.
[/QUOTE]

And where have you shown that self-defense is not manifestly appropriate?

34

[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
I also disagree with Loach’s analysis. The statute defines switchblade as a knife with a “blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife.” To open this knife, you apply pressure to the blade of the knife. After you begin to open it, it flips into place. At no point is pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle.
[/QUOTE]

I will say that it is a judgement only and not an answer. I didn’t say it was a switchblade though it does have a little bit in common. Switchblades are illegal for interstate sale by federal law. A legitimate website would not sell one. I would be able to make a better answer if I had the knife in my hand and not a picture and description. But as of now I stand by it. The statute also says.

It seems that from the description the knife opens with a spring action as well as the application of centrifugal force. Basically it is designed to be a quick one hand draw. Quick one hand draw and thrust.

35

[QUOTE=Loach]
I will say that it is a judgement only and not an answer. I didn’t say it was a switchblade though it does have a little bit in common. Switchblades are illegal for interstate sale by federal law. A legitimate website would not sell one. I would be able to make a better answer if I had the knife in my hand and not a picture and description. But as of now I stand by it.
[/quote]

I don’t really follow you here. Which judgment do you stand by?

It is spring-action only, not centrifugal force. There are videos of the knife on Youtube if you want a better look at it. The purpose of its design is irrelevant since the statute is so clear about the physical definition.

36

[QUOTE=Campo]
I never said that anyone wanting to carry for self defense reasons could get a permit to carry. I said that those that are granted permission are done so for pretty much only defense reasons.
[/QUOTE]

Just because something is possible does not mean it is likely or even meaningful. Unrestricted carry permits are only issued under extraordinary circumstance. So extraordinary that it becomes meaningless for whatever argument you seem to be trying to have. They just aren’t given out. You are wrong, pretty much all those granted permission are retired cops. Thats it.

[QUOTE=Campo]

Proving my point. Of course you can think of other reasons an armed guard would be packing, but you get my point.
[/QUOTE]

I have no idea what you are talking about or if you have a point.

[QUOTE=Campo]

Straw man argument. You are getting off the topic and I said nothing about it being easy to get a permit to carry in NJ.
[/QUOTE]

Not a strawman if you really know what that over used term around here means. As I said the issuance of a CCW permit is so rare that it is meaningless. It doesn’t happen.

[QUOTE=Campo]

Bullshit! If the knife is not a gravity knife, etc., you’re reason for carrying being self-defense is just as good as your reason being “I use it to fix my lawnmower”.
[/QUOTE]

No it is not. And you have given no reason why not. Other than your gut feeling.

[QUOTE=Campo]

Getting arrested for what? Saying that you carry a knife for self defense, or getting arrested because the knife is not of the legal type?

[/QUOTE]

Obviously there had to have been some other reason why you came into contact with the police in the first place. No need to get into hypotheticals. At this point just assume there is some reason why it was found on you. Of course if no one ever knows you are carrying you won’t get into trouble. As Bob Dylan sang “In Jersey everythings legal as long as you don’t get caught.”

[QUOTE=Campo]

And where have you shown that self-defense is not manifestly appropriate?
[/QUOTE]

You don’t know what that means. A vague idea of self defense is not manifestly appropriate. Someone with just some paranoid feeling that he may need to stab someone at sometime is not enough. Someone in actual danger would be in a better position to make the claim. Like I said you need more. Sorry.

If I didn’t know better it would seem like a guest is trying to get my goat. Sorry, no goat.

37

[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
I don’t really follow you here. Which judgment do you stand by?

It is spring-action only, not centrifugal force. There are videos of the knife on Youtube if you want a better look at it. The purpose of its design is irrelevant since the statute is so clear about the physical definition.
[/QUOTE]

It’s possible you are right. I can only go by what was in the link provided. What I am going by is this quote:

It seemed to me from the quote that you use centrifugal force to do the quick one hand draw. I have never held one of them. If you have a link to a video it would be helpful.

38

[QUOTE=Loach]
It’s possible you are right. I can only go by what was in the link provided. What I am going by is this quote:
It seemed to me from the quote that you use centrifugal force to do the quick one hand draw. I have never held one of them. If you have a link to a video it would be helpful.
[/QUOTE]

I will repeat what I said back in post #5

[quote]
The way I read your cite it is not a gravity knife “Gravity knife” means any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force… p." You cannot flick these knives open, they require pressure on the stud. The spring just assists in the opening, it does not open by itself due to the force of gravity or centrifugal force.

39

Video of the SOG Flash II .

40

[QUOTE=Loach]
Just because something is possible does not mean it is likely or even meaningful. Unrestricted carry permits are only issued under extraordinary circumstance. So extraordinary that it becomes meaningless for whatever argument you seem to be trying to have. They just aren’t given out. You are wrong, pretty much all those granted permission are retired cops. Thats it.
[/quote]

No. How extraordinary the circumstances are does not make my argument meaningless.

You said, “It is illegal to carry a gun (it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit) just in case someone might need to be shot.”

Whether it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit is what’s irrelevant. It is not illegal to carry a gun “just in case someone might need to be shot.” THAT’S WHY CARRY PERMITS ARE GIVEN!

[QUOTE=Loach]
I have no idea what you are talking about or if you have a point.
[/quote]

Not my probelem (but I think you do get it).

[QUOTE=Loach]
Not a strawman if you really know what that over used term around here means.
[/quote]

It was a strawman. How rare the circumstances are that one is given a permit to carry was irrelevant.

[QUOTE=Loach]
As I said the issuance of a CCW permit is so rare that it is meaningless. It doesn’t happen.
[/quote]

It does happen. Rare does not equal doesn’t happen. Rarity does not make anything I’ve said meaningless.

[QUOTE=Loach]
No it is not. And you have given no reason why not. Other than your gut feeling.
[/quote]

That would be pretty hard for me to do. If you said it is illegal to have a Frisbee in my glove compartment, it is not up to me to give reasons why it’s not. And your guess that I’m going by a gut feeling is just that- a guess.

[QUOTE=Loach]
Obviously there had to have been some other reason why you came into contact with the police in the first place.
[/quote]

So what? That doesn’t answer my question. You said, “you are getting arrested”.

[QUOTE=Loach]
As Bob Dylan sang “In Jersey everythings legal as long as you don’t get caught.”
[/quote]

This is where reasonable dopers are going to hope that they don’t have any altercations with you while you’re on duty.

[QUOTE=Loach]
You don’t know what that means. A vague idea of self defense is not manifestly appropriate.
[/quote]

I have yet to arrest anyone for merely possessing a knife without a “good” reason for having one and I’ve never heard of it happening before. (I’m a Port Authority cop.)

Where are you getting that it’s not manifestly appropriate?

[QUOTE=Loach]
Someone with just some paranoid feeling that he may need to stab someone at sometime is not enough.
[/quote]

Paranoid feeling? Carrying a legal knife for self defense or any other legal purpose is not illegal, period.

[QUOTE=Loach]
Someone in actual danger would be in a better position to make the claim. Like I said you need more. Sorry.
[/quote]

Huh? One is supposed to know when a self-defense situation may arise?

[QUOTE=Loach]
If I didn’t know better it would seem like a guest is trying to get my goat. Sorry, no goat.
[/QUOTE]

Now you’re stooping to indirectly calling me a troll? Whatever.